 | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | (...) How does posting constructive criticism here get back to the writer of that trash? If you wish to quote or paraphrase the parts you think are salient or you agree with (or disagree with), I can have a discussion about that with you, but (...) (22 years ago, 18-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —John Neal
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| | | | (...) What I found most interesting about it is his addressing the issue of the growing Muslim population of Europe, especially in France. In that context, it is understandable to see the growing rift between countries like France and the US, and in (...) (22 years ago, 18-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | (...) In the context that the Muslim population is growing in Europe, it might be interesting, but the article you quote is absolutely venomous about it. Since you make no mention of it even after me refering to the article as "drivel" and "trash", (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) Oh, the bitterness didn't escape me. And I never claimed to ascribe to his view-- I just, as I said in my one word review, found it "interesting". How many feel the same as he? Is it a growing sentiment? I have no idea. I frankly didn't even (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Terry Prosper
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| | | | | | | (...) Ah! There it is! The proven fact that you are a racist. What? You think your religion is enlightened? Can you tell us which religions have passed the JohnNeal test of Enlightenment? Please, show the world the greatness of your prejudices! (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) Okay, let's put away the racist card already. Islam is a *religion*. Followers of Islam are *Muslims*. "Arab" is a race term, not "Muslim", okay? (...) Sorry I wasn't clear in my meaning: "Enlightenment" A philosophical movement of the 18th (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) All right. Why don't we use the term "bigot" then? (...) If you're going to use the term "enlightenment" as litmus test to determine whether a group is worthy of respect, then you need to throw out groups that work to foster pseudoscience in (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) Thank you. But really, I haven't a problem with Islam per se. There are many peaceful Muslims. What I *do* have a problem with are extremist Muslims who tend to comprise a shockingly high percentage of the Muslim population, and the seemingly (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) It might be useful to have a clear, legitimate tally of extremists relative to the whole sample population. We can't use the US media or Arab-state-run media, since both of these sources are tainted. There are over a billion Muslims in the (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Well, say we compared it to the percentage of extremist Christians for example. I don't know what that number is, but judging from reported Christian terrorist attacks I'd say that it is pretty low. Even if the percentage of extremist Muslims (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) What if the belief system itself is flawed? As I understand it, to be a good muslim, one has to follow sharia (religious law). Sharia is used as civil law in many countries and in many others, it's being pushed as something that SHOULD be used (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Terry Prosper
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Most like USA's death penalty. Who are we to decide what is right or wrong? This is called a cultural clash. In the Muslim culture, Adultery may be one of the worst thing a person can do in his/her life. If so, it would be logical for this (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) You seem to be saying we can't judge other cultures. Can we judge people? Can we judge groups of people? How many people have to follow the same idea before we can't judge it? I would point out that many wrongdoers in the world believe that (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Terry Prosper
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Of course, you judge your own values better to others. Muslims would also have great arguments to debate with you, I suppose. That's not the point. We can't kill others. It's a human right to be alive, to have our life preserved and protected. (...) (22 years ago, 20-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Richie Dulin
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| | | | | | | | In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: <snip> (...) <snip> Far better to simply declare that all rights are property rights and assign a dollar value for all transgressions, eh Larry? Cheers Richie Dulin (22 years ago, 21-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) You're being sarcastic, but I'll take you seriously anyway... my answer is yes. Seems fairer to me than imposing sharia on all residents of a country just because an islamic government happens to get into power. (22 years ago, 21-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Richie Dulin
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| | | | | | | | (...) Why would sarcasm be a reason *not* to take a comment seriously? (...) But it's okay simply declare that all rights are property rights and assign a dollar value for all transgressions, just because a capitalist government* happens to get into (...) (22 years ago, 21-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) Capitalist governments, *by definition*, don't just "happen" to get into power, and the process of assigning dollar values is not random, capricious, unappealable, or unchanging. Given those clarifications... yes, in my view, it is OK for such (...) (22 years ago, 22-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Richie Dulin
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| | | | | | | | (...) Are you confusing 'capitalist' with 'democratic'? (...) A new dollar value determined every time for every transaction... Imagine the beurocracy behind that! LOL (...) Cheers Richie Dulin (22 years ago, 22-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) Nope, are you? (...) I imagined it already, it's ZERO. There is no bureacracy involved.. We said *capitalist*, remember. The market does it for you. I determine a dollar value every time I do a transaction now. Don't you? Or do you buy stuff (...) (22 years ago, 22-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Richie Dulin
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| | | | | | | | (...) Apparently so. (...) It *seems* like a good idea, it *seems* like it might work. Because all rights are property rights and all that... Okay, so I accidentally kill my neighbour. Darn it, I say. I must make recompense for the killing. Do I (...) (22 years ago, 22-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) In a manner of speaking, yes. You can expect a wrongful death lawsuit from his heirs (and insurance company) unless you settle out of court. But even so you may get some criminal penalty applied too... depending on the nature of the accident (...) (22 years ago, 22-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Terry Prosper
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| | | | | | | | | So people have a value... A $$$ value I mean. Depending on their status, where they live, what they do, how they act... We are far from the "We are all equal" objective here. To me, the fact that money gets involved to settle a crime is wrong. Money (...) (22 years ago, 22-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Richie Dulin
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| | | | | | | | (...) Ahh... so we can dispense with the beaurocracy do determine the price of the crime and build a judiciary instead. Seems like a good idea. But what is this mention of a criminal penalty? How does that fit with an 'all rights are property (...) (22 years ago, 22-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) I think breaching a contract is wrong. That's a general principle. My contract prohibits it. Why? I personally don't think that it would be a good idea for me personally to be an adulterer. So it would be wrong for me. But I am not so (...) (22 years ago, 22-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Richie Dulin
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| | | | | | | | (...) <snipped the adultery bit> (...) Determined by a judicial process... so once again, you need a judiciary... and because your theoretical system is dynamic, values for transgressions need to be determined each and every time, so it's going to (...) (22 years ago, 22-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | (...) France has long had a difficult relationship with Arab countries due to its colonialism in North Africa (Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia come to mind). That reverse migration has happened only seems appropriate: the link worked both ways. There has (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —John Neal
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| | | | | | | (...) I'm seeing that the term "Enlightenment" was probably too loaded a word for the idea I wished to convey. What I meant by it was an intellectual passing into the 20th Century. By most accounts I have read, it is generally agreed that Islam is (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | (...) About 20% strong. The number comes from the percentage Mr. Le Pen had in the last presidential election. (...) (To John: a significant number of Muslims has lived in Europe for centuries, notably in the Balkans. They are not Arabs, and they (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) To answer your question above, I was referring, as I believe the author of the article was as well, to Arab immigration and their direct descendants post WWII. When I said "dominated", I meant in the context of numbers. The Muslim population (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | (...) So doesn't that make your own distinction between "Muslim" and "Arab" a bit shakier? You claimed to be referring to Muslims, and that Arab was a race-related term. (...) (and exactly what do you propose to do about it???) Don't you think it's (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) lol Absolutely nothing-- it's not really my problem! I just found the statistics interesting and am just wondering how *Europe* will react. (...) Again, I don't want to speak about *Arabs*, unless we are talking about those Arabs who are (...) (22 years ago, 20-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Terry Prosper
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| | | | | | | (...) Right there, I can tell you exactly why you are mistaking. Oussama Bin Laden attacked USA because of USA's foreign affairs. Your country gets involved in almost every political tension in the world, even when USA has nothing to do with it and (...) (22 years ago, 20-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Pedro Silva
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| | | | | | | (...) Should it react at all? Are we in trouble? If so, exactly what kind of trouble? (...) Read some paragraphs above: you stated *clearly* that you were referring to Arabs, as you supposed that the author was too. (...) Of course not. You won't (...) (22 years ago, 20-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Thomas Stangl
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| | | | | | (...) ...and non-existent to the radical Christians, which there seem to be more and more of every day. Go ahead, try to sweep your own people under the rug, but you can't deny there are quite a number of absolute NUTCASES that swing some decent (...) (22 years ago, 20-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: "France is not a Western Country anymore" —Terry Prosper
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| | | | (...) So? Even if Europe was to become 90% Muslim, what would it change? You state an article that prones violence and racism against a country, someone asks why, you say it's because there are a lot of Muslims... This would be called racism by most (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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