Debate : 13328


Off-Topic / Debate / 13328

Re: War —Ross Crawford

(...) Agree with all that. (...) Don't really agree with this, however I think it's pointless debating who's at fault in such a case. Probably more important is the fact that the US let Saddam's propaganda machine continue, so there's probably a few (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) You don't agree with this then: from: (URL) OF SANCTIONS DIRECT EFFECTS (immediate) 1. Decreased Imports Medicines Food Imports Agricultural Inputs - fertilizer, pesticides, spare parts Industrial/Commercial inputs/parts Other spare parts Fuel (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Larry Pieniazek

(...) <snip first two parts of rebuttal> (...) No, it is in fact quite important, else you leave things hanging and you leave things open to the chattering classes claiming that 911 was our fault, for example. Let's try an analogy. Suppose Fred (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) This is cazy logic. You talk like sanctions are good & proven weapon which always work. They are not. (...) I agree. (...) You mean they did not agree with your "grasp right and wrong". (...) Can you prove she was "booby trapped and falsely (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Scott, do you mean when he says "they are an ineffective remedy?" Is that the part that makes you think they are a good and proven weapon? I sometimes wonder if we're speaking the same language. I don't agree with Larry on lots of things, but (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) I take your point. I think that the fact that they are "ineffective" is fundamental to understanding the situation - not an incidental fact. I should spend more time on my messages. (...) Why not fix the mistakes 1st, before starting a new (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Frank Filz

(...) Because one can't afford to fix every mistake one has ever made. Do you think the UK should fix all of the mistakes it made with it's colonialism? Who is going to fix the mistakes the Romans made with their colonialism (after all, some of our (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Lawrence Wilkes

"Frank Filz" <ffilz@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:3BB9D390.345B@m...ing.com... (...) Perhaps not. But this doesn't stop folk in Ireland, and the world over, believing that the British should return land that was taken a long time ago. Nor (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Lawrence Wilkes

"Lawrence Wilkes" <lawrence@thewilkesf...rve.co.uk> wrote in message news:GKL3y3.Ay9@lugnet.com... (...) taken (...) And for Scott's benefit, I should have included the independance of Scotland of course Mel Gibson is not going to let us forget (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) Don't worry. I'm very happy to be part of the UK *and* Europe. Scotland has 10% of the UK population, but 90% of the culture (and 95% of the tooth decay and heart disease!) :0 Scott A (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) This is a *very* interesting point. The UK, France & Holland have very suspect colonial pasts. Why is it that the people we oppressed don't hate us like so much of the world appears to hate the USA? Is the collective memory short or does the (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Lawrence Wilkes

"Scott A" <eh105jb@mx1.pair.com> wrote in message news:GKL6Lv.H9n@lugnet.com... (...) taken (...) I doubt it is very different. Extremists in some countries hate the UK. Extremists in some countries hate the USA. Majority of people in the same (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) Scotland's forte is Snooker(1) and Darts (pub games)(2). Scott A (1. S. Hendry used to play in my home town – he lived about 5 miles away) (2. I went to the same school Jockie Wilson's kids!) Overseas readers : If you have never heard of these (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Ross Crawford

(...) of allowing them to give us a good beating (...) us at cricket and they will forget we are (...) P'haps 'cos it's too hard to play cricket in a kilt... ROSCO FUT: .o-t.fun (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) Heck no - I'm talking about the current messes. Why build bases in places like Saudi-Arabia? Because of their love for democracy. Why support Israel? Why continue the current mess in Iraq. Why seek the extradition of an individuals without (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Who are you referring to here? bin Laden as has been suggested here by some before? If bin Laden... From AP ((URL) NATO (news - web sites) headquarters in Brussels, Belgium, the alliance's secretary general, Lord Robertson, said the United (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) I know little about courts in the USA, but in the UK George Robertson's (arguably a failed politician) say so is not good enough for a conviction. Would that wash in the USA? NB : I want justice not revenge. (...) OK. So we have a dispute (...) (23 years ago, 3-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

gum arabic (was Re: War) —Scott Arthur

(...) Frank, Here is an easy one to fix. Try to read the whole text, look at the claimed impact that "mess" has had on the whole country: (URL) A (...) (23 years ago, 3-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: gum arabic (was Re: War) —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) to (...) things right rather than dragging our feet. We should have supplied the lost meds at the cost that that factory would have while we rebuilt the factory. And we should have paid for the medical expenses and of everyone who has a valid (...) (23 years ago, 3-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Larry Pieniazek

(...) So you are comfortable with fixing the past mistakes we made in supporting the thugs in Iraq and then in leaving the job undone the first time we had a chance to clean up the mess, then? The implication of that, of course, is that you support (...) (23 years ago, 4-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) Have you even read my replies to Frank? Scott A (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Lawrence Wilkes

"Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> wrote in message news:GKKrsr.651@lugnet.com... (...) Except no one is talking about x-box'es and no one expects the state to provide x-boxes on welfare. But had Fred Bloggs Jr been hungry because of the (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Not necessarily "would have" in all cases, and most assuredly not "should have". It is *not* the duty of the state to ensure that everyone is cared for. That your state has chosen to do that (the will of the majority imposed on all funds it) (...) (23 years ago, 4-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Lawrence Wilkes

"Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> wrote in message news:GKou8D.K9v@lugnet.com... (...) I don't think your argument stands one bit. You were trying to use this as justification as to why Iraqi children should suffer, because of the crimes (...) (23 years ago, 4-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Incorrect. Suffering of children is never "justified". My argument merely demonstrates that their suffering is not the *fault* of the US, just as the suffering of FB Jr (while not "justified") in not having his wants satisfied is not the (...) (23 years ago, 4-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —David Eaton

(...) Such sweeping assumptions on causality. Tsk tsk. By pulling back the causal loop one step further to point the finger at FB Sr. instead of the government that imprisoned him is no better than to step back one step further and point the finger (...) (23 years ago, 4-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Tsk tsk yourself. I'm comfortable I've got the causes pegged correctly. (URL) (23 years ago, 4-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —David Eaton

(...) that fault != bad. Saying that the US isn't at fault is erroneous. Saying that you stand behind our actions insofar as you think things would have been *WORSE* had we acted differently or not at all is what I expect you to mean. Per your (...) (23 years ago, 4-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Nope. That cite in fact does get to the root of the assertion you make. Saying that FB Sr. has an out because he had a bad childhood is egregious bogosity. (23 years ago, 4-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —David Eaton

(...) An "out"? I never said he had an "out". An "out" implies removal of responsibility perhaps, but not of fault. Perhaps a re-reading of my two posts is in order. I feel a little like I'm entering the "Scott-and-Larry show" on this one... DaveE (23 years ago, 4-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Can you elaborate on what you mean by "fault !=bad" then? Maybe there's some fundamental misunderstanding here... However: I'll reiterate, FB Jr.s pain is FB Srs fault more than anyone else's. Reread the cite I gave... you're going down the (...) (23 years ago, 4-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —David Eaton

(...) Acha! That's the crucial bit. "More FBS's fault than the government's". I.E. not to say that the government isn't at fault-- that would be (I think it is)misleading. But more to say that it is FBS's actions which, "should" have changed-- or (...) (23 years ago, 4-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Larry Pieniazek

(...) What I want to do is divorce causality from fault to a certain extent here. Factors in FB Sr.s environment may well have contributed to his being a bad person, ("caused it") but remember the scenario, we assume a just finding of homicide as a (...) (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Larry Pieniazek

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: Oh, and further, in the general case, it is the parent that is at fault when the parent does not adequately provide for the minor child. Not external factors or causes that the parent could have (...) (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Freedom vs. Wellfare (was: War) —Horst Lehner

(...) I agree with most of that, including that it is not just that the child suffer for the fault of the father. But I could imagine some other ways of ensuring that he doesn't, besides allowing adoption. Isn't there quite possibly a mother who (...) (23 years ago, 6-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Freedom vs. Wellfare (was: War) —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Potentially, if that's what the mother wants to do. (...) Where does this money come from? Taxpayers, or voluntary contributions? If the former, it is *less* just to extort funds from yet more victims (the taxpayers) to allow the father to (...) (23 years ago, 6-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Freedom vs. Wellfare —Horst Lehner

Hello Larry, (...) Now, this is exactly where we differ. While you seem to always look at the situation from the imprisoned father's perspective, I see the child to be an innocent victim of the father. And if you feel as a victim just because you (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Freedom vs. Wellfare —Larry Pieniazek

(...) I would *not* want to pay. He should pay for his own incarceration to the maximum extent possible, but when he cannot we must pay to keep him there in order to protect ourselves. (...) The child starves to death. (...) No they should not. But (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Freedom vs. Wellfare —Horst Lehner

Hello Larry, hello everybody, (...) So the goods you need to be kept alive (in a decent way, I would add) are not rights? What value does the right to live have, then, if it is OK for others to just let me starve, without any fault on my side (...) (23 years ago, 10-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Freedom vs. Wellfare —Simon Bennett

(...) Please don't move it to email, Horst. Your contributions have been extremely well thought out and useful and you are now getting to a point that I have been looking for a reasonable way to raise to hear Larry's 'total free market' view on. (...) (23 years ago, 11-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

not sure what to call this —Larry Pieniazek

Hmm... not sure if you are referring to whence resource property rights, or is it the luck factor that you are wondering about. (...) Chris has alluded to this problem in the past. Asserting labor mixin as a mechanism to getting title to previously (...) (23 years ago, 11-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

The value of environmental assets (was Re: not sure what to call this) —Simon Bennett

(...) I think it's both actually: (...) Yes, this is exactly the problem. It was solved in Antarctica by dividing up among nations that were close or had 'discovered' it and this has worked mainly because they also all agreed to leave the natural (...) (23 years ago, 12-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The value of environmental assets (was Re: not sure what to call this) —Steven Lane

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Simon Bennett writes: If you had placed Aboriginal Australians in (...) Although this is wrong from a human point of view, genetically it is of course correct. The genes of the conqueror's thrive more than those of the (...) (22 years ago, 28-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

The value of environmental assets (was Re: not sure what to call this) —Simon Bennett

Re: not sure what to call this —Horst Lehner

(...) I agree. (...) I agree. (...) I don't agree. Not that I have to offer a better system, but how can you prove it's impossible? (...) I agree on freedom, but then, isn't there also a price others in the world have to pay for our freedom? If so, (...) (23 years ago, 15-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Freedom vs. Wellfare —Ross Crawford

(...) I think the issue here is the fact that the state collects taxes, and uses them as *it* sees fit. In a free market, everyone would still have the right to help the abandoned child as they see fit, without the state "forcing" them to. Where (...) (23 years ago, 11-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Freedom vs. Wellfare —Horst Lehner

(...) This is probably the best statement I have read here on the topic ... Thanks for it, Ross, and greetings Horst (who is a bit behind in reading news ...) (23 years ago, 24-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Freedom vs. Wellfare —Larry Pieniazek

(...) That is a correct restatement of what I said, yes. There are no rights to free goods. This is a fundamental tenet of my belief system. It is not held by all americans (witness those who feel a tithe to their church is a mandatory moral (...) (23 years ago, 11-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Freedom vs. Wellfare —Horst Lehner

(...) And you would hold that even if what they take away from you is pure luxury, whereas they need it to survive? Well, a humanistic attitude IMO goes a bit more towards enabling a decent life for everybody. It also does not contain a right to (...) (23 years ago, 24-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) What if passers by cut themselves on the barbs? (...) ...only if the punishment is just. Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) That's easy. Either the fence builder built a hazardous obstruction on land not his own, or the passer by was trespassing. (...) There's no such thing. The punisher is at fault, in my opinon (but it can only _be_ opinion...there is no right (...) (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) I agree with you to very large extent. But when one is faced with grieving relatives it is very difficult to argue against the retribution argument. On a macro scale this was what was happening in the US in the days after the 11th; a lot of (...) (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) suffer. (...) only (...) if (...) still (...) Tough. I'd do it. We must be better than that. (...) I agree. I think I was nearly assaulted at work when an argument became heated and when I was called unamerican, I responded that they (the (...) (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Ross Crawford

(...) So to clarify, are you saying that FB jr should pay for FB sr's mistake? In that case, shouldn't you extend your definition to be something like "society is set up to allow people (and their families) to reap ..."? ROSCO (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Larry Pieniazek

(...) No, I'm not. (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) This is a joke coming from you, in the last weeks you have shown me that you don't understand (amongst other this): Freedom Liberty Freedom of Speech Freedom & liberty From (URL) > As for "first principles", I have become convinced that you (...) (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Let's be clear here. I am just NOT going to get into an open ended debate with you on whether I understand freedom or not. That is so laughable an allegation that it's not worth responding to. Further you don't get to dictate where the (...) (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) Yes, let's. (...) I'm not asking for a debate, just that you justify your comments. It is that simple. (...) Or one you can't respond to? (...) Larry. I don't try to dictate the "conversation" here. Go check how many threads I have started in (...) (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Tom Stangl

(...) Riiiiight. I think you need to read the last day or two in here - he asked a simple yes/no question, and you dodged it with "is this a question?". -- Tom Stangl ***(URL) Visual FAQ home ***(URL) Bay Area DSMs (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) Riiiiight. Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Have you stopped beating your wife? Chris (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) I would not dare hit her.. You've never seen my wife's mother. How about you? Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) one. (...) I presumed that the second 'question' above was supposed to be 'answer.' And so I assumed that you meant you would answer with a 'yes' or a 'no.' Is that not what you meant, or did you fail to do so? (...) I have not stopped beating (...) (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Dave Schuler

(...) Then you're going to have to deal with Scott's mother-in-law. Dave! (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) I could sell her some LEGO, but I'd expect that were she in the market, she would buy from Scott. Chris (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Ross Crawford

(...) Whoa! You're starting to get a bit on-topic (Lugnet)! Maybe you should've set follow-ups to .market.b-s-t???? ROSCO (23 years ago, 6-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) Well spotted. (...) I shall be clearer : Ask me a question to which I can qive a yes/no answer, and I'll give it one. (...) Because you never started? Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 7-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) You could have. You simply did not like the connotations that doing so implied. It's not like I asked what the value of pi is. (That would have been unfair.) (...) Of course. And presumably that's your answer too. So you could have just (...) (23 years ago, 7-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Horst Lehner

Hello Larry, (...) It seems to me that this discussion is getting too confrontational. Also, for me the question should be WHAT EXACTLY you understand to be freedom rather than WHETHER OR NOT you understand what freedom is. In the light of some (...) (23 years ago, 6-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) I think they do to, and that is my point. As I have said before, I think Larry has a rather selfish view of what freedom means and that is why he is unwilling to justify his comments in the context of the text I have referred him to (although (...) (23 years ago, 7-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) What do you mean 'based on.' I would agree with the assertion that the freedoms we commonly claim to be self-evident and inalienable are freedoms that we are unwilling to let some others in the world live with. And that's wrong. But I don't (...) (23 years ago, 7-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) Right now by typing this text in my humble little office I am enjoying my freedom of speech. My ability to do this is based on the past actions of HM Gov and UK industry. Denying the rights to others have given us the $$ to pay for the (...) (23 years ago, 7-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Disagree. You could be typing from an office in any nation in the world. I would assert (with no intent of proving it) that there are net connections into virtually every nation at this point. (...) We have exploited others wrongly and have (...) (23 years ago, 7-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) I expect there are Rolls Royce’s too. (...) What is your wealth based on then? The 'wealth' of native Americans? The slave trade? (...) If Saudi-Arabia were to democratically vote for a Government which is "bad" (as Israel already has) then (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Horst Lehner

Hello Chris, (...) Making money is not one of your freedoms? Or you don't make money a the expense of the one worldwide environment we have? You pay fair prices for the goods you import from the third world? There are no people starving in Somalia, (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Horst Lehner

Hello Scott, while I agree to some thoughts of your analysis, I have to oppose this one: (...) In no way does bin Laden or the Taliban stand for more freedom. Look at Iran and, even worse, Afghanistan. Only the leaders are enjoying freedom there. (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: War —Scott Arthur

(...) Look at what he wants for these places, you will see it is what the public there wants. (...) That is why I said "more fredom" not "freedom". (...) I agree. (...) It depends on what you mean by freedom. The west has a lot of wealth. More than (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)