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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > > I'll reiterate, FB Jr.s pain is FB Srs fault more than anyone else's.
> >
> > Acha! That's the crucial bit. "More FBS's fault than the government's". I.E.
> > not to say that the government isn't at fault-- that would be (I think it
> > is)misleading. But more to say that it is FBS's actions which, "should" have
> > changed-- or "should" have changed *more* than the government's actions
> > "should" have changed.
> >
> > > Reread the cite I gave... you're going down the same complex causality road
> > > that they were.
> >
> > And more so! By Chaos theory *I'm* actually at fault! But so much less so
> > than others that bringing me into the picture would be nearly useless.
> > However, to state that the US is not at fault at *all* is misleading and
> > incorrect, would say I.
>
> What I want to do is divorce causality from fault to a certain extent here.
> Factors in FB Sr.s environment may well have contributed to his being a bad
> person, ("caused it") but remember the scenario, we assume a just finding of
> homicide as a basis. (not manslaughter, not "not guilty by reason of
> insanity") That means he DECIDED to murder.
>
> This means *by definition* that the fault here lies with the person who
> voluntarily committed the crime. Not the state for restricting his further
> ability to commit crimes (and punish him at the same time), not the nebulous
> factors that made him be a bad person. He CHOSE to be bad in this particular
> instance so it's *all* his fault. Regardless of secondary causality.
>
> > I think your point is not that the US isn't at fault, but that it is not the
> > US's actions that should change
>
> Wow I must have really explained this badly. (I don't actually think so of
> course)... that's wrong twice.
>
> My point rather is totally opposite. The US OUGHT to drop the sanctions. The
> US OUGHT to change how it meddles so as not to create further Husseins. The
> US OUGHT to clean up the mess it made here, which means getting rid of this
> particular tinpot and doing some nation building, distasteful as that is to
> me in the general case.
>
> But the US ought to do these things for reasons OTHER than that the US is at
> any way at fault for what (if anything) the sanctions did or did not do.
>
> (note carefully we are talking about fault as far as sanction effects and
> sanction effects only. That Hussein is able to do what he has done in the
> last 10 years IS our fault, but it's not the sanctions, it is fault due to
> actions we took (propping him up for meddlesome reasons) or didn't take (not
> removing him when it would have been easier to do so than now) farther back
> in time that clearly have culpability)
>
> The fence builder is not at fault for building fences if bandits cut
> themselves on the barbs.
What if passers by cut themselves on the barbs?
>
> The punisher is not at fault for punishing criminals if the criminals suffer.
...only if the punishment is just.
Scott A
>
> Cause != fault
>
> ++Lar
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: War
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| (...) That's easy. Either the fence builder built a hazardous obstruction on land not his own, or the passer by was trespassing. (...) There's no such thing. The punisher is at fault, in my opinon (but it can only _be_ opinion...there is no right (...) (24 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: War
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| (...) What I want to do is divorce causality from fault to a certain extent here. Factors in FB Sr.s environment may well have contributed to his being a bad person, ("caused it") but remember the scenario, we assume a just finding of homicide as a (...) (24 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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