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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > I'll reiterate, FB Jr.s pain is FB Srs fault more than anyone else's.
>
> Acha! That's the crucial bit. "More FBS's fault than the government's". I.E.
> not to say that the government isn't at fault-- that would be (I think it
> is)misleading. But more to say that it is FBS's actions which, "should" have
> changed-- or "should" have changed *more* than the government's actions
> "should" have changed.
>
> > Reread the cite I gave... you're going down the same complex causality road
> > that they were.
>
> And more so! By Chaos theory *I'm* actually at fault! But so much less so
> than others that bringing me into the picture would be nearly useless.
> However, to state that the US is not at fault at *all* is misleading and
> incorrect, would say I.
What I want to do is divorce causality from fault to a certain extent here.
Factors in FB Sr.s environment may well have contributed to his being a bad
person, ("caused it") but remember the scenario, we assume a just finding of
homicide as a basis. (not manslaughter, not "not guilty by reason of
insanity") That means he DECIDED to murder.
This means *by definition* that the fault here lies with the person who
voluntarily committed the crime. Not the state for restricting his further
ability to commit crimes (and punish him at the same time), not the nebulous
factors that made him be a bad person. He CHOSE to be bad in this particular
instance so it's *all* his fault. Regardless of secondary causality.
> I think your point is not that the US isn't at fault, but that it is not the
> US's actions that should change
Wow I must have really explained this badly. (I don't actually think so of
course)... that's wrong twice.
My point rather is totally opposite. The US OUGHT to drop the sanctions. The
US OUGHT to change how it meddles so as not to create further Husseins. The
US OUGHT to clean up the mess it made here, which means getting rid of this
particular tinpot and doing some nation building, distasteful as that is to
me in the general case.
But the US ought to do these things for reasons OTHER than that the US is at
any way at fault for what (if anything) the sanctions did or did not do.
(note carefully we are talking about fault as far as sanction effects and
sanction effects only. That Hussein is able to do what he has done in the
last 10 years IS our fault, but it's not the sanctions, it is fault due to
actions we took (propping him up for meddlesome reasons) or didn't take (not
removing him when it would have been easier to do so than now) farther back
in time that clearly have culpability)
The fence builder is not at fault for building fences if bandits cut
themselves on the barbs.
The punisher is not at fault for punishing criminals if the criminals suffer.
Cause != fault
++Lar
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: War
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| In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: Oh, and further, in the general case, it is the parent that is at fault when the parent does not adequately provide for the minor child. Not external factors or causes that the parent could have (...) (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: War
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| (...) What if passers by cut themselves on the barbs? (...) ...only if the punishment is just. Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 5-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: War
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| (...) Acha! That's the crucial bit. "More FBS's fault than the government's". I.E. not to say that the government isn't at fault-- that would be (I think it is)misleading. But more to say that it is FBS's actions which, "should" have changed-- or (...) (23 years ago, 4-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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