 | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee — Kelly McKiernan
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| | | (...) First, thank you for your efforts with the LPRV committee, Kevin. Even though you and others felt you could not continue the process, I still believe it's a vital component in getting LUGNET back on track, and I'm hopeful that the review (...) (19 years ago, 21-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general, FTX)
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| | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —David Koudys
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| | | | | In lugnet.admin.general, Kelly McKiernan wrote: <snip lotsa goodstuff> (...) The first step, in my humble opinion, isn't accuracy, it's transparency. We're not in Kindergarten, where the teacher has to set everything up 'behind the scenes' and then (...) (19 years ago, 21-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general, FTX)
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| | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee — Kelly McKiernan
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| | | | | | (...) You bring up some good and valid points, especially regarding perception of opacity. It's a real issue, and it's something we're trying to improve on. In this specific example (the LPRV committee and process documentation), I do think there's (...) (19 years ago, 21-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | (...) LUGNET historians might remember the flurry of posts about CP and cp--community policing. It was all in the open and we all chimed in and we all hashed it out (at least those of us who felt strongly about it) (...) Again, perception, even if (...) (19 years ago, 21-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Leonard Hoffman
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| | | | | | | | (...) I don't know about all of this. People keep talking about transparency and how great it all is, but exactly what do you want to see? Do you want the Admin emails to be public? Do you want to see every draft of public pronouncements? To use the (...) (19 years ago, 21-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Jason S. Mantor
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| | | | | | You mentioned the efficiency of a tiered review process as a reason for not making everything about lugnet administration public. I don't buy that. I submit that efficency is irrelavent to the problem at hand and I beleive that recent events clearly (...) (19 years ago, 21-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Leonard Hoffman
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| | | | | | (...) No personal offense intended - have you ever run a large community forum, or managed people? There is a big difference in how people think things should be run when they have actually had to run things. (...) I think that the LPRV Committee (...) (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | | (...) I too had high hopes for the LPRC. Has it officially failed? (...) Well I guess there's several viewpoints on those reasons too, but I would be interested in what (in your opinion) caused it to fail. ROSCO (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Leonard Hoffman
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| | | | | | | | (...) I don't think there is much officiality to the failures it has experienced. I don't think the Admins have called for it to be disbanded yet. I don't know. (...) I think the committee's effectiveness was seriously damaged by Kevin publically (...) (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Chris Magno
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| | | | | | | | Leonard Hoffman wrote: If Kevin felt he couldn't in good faith (...) re: your last 5 words See, this is what people mean when they say transparency. (1) I have a HUGE post to go public, but i am sitting on it. WHY, cause out of respect i am hoping (...) (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | (...) I'll say this, I'm still hopeful that the LPRV will pick up where it left off and get back to work. Maybe now it can. I owe the LPRV a significant sized post with answers to the questions that were asked about various technical and intention (...) (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | In lugnet.admin.general, Larry Pieniazek wrote: <snip> (...) Possibly due to the perceived lack of faith from 'the community' towards the admin team in a few areas, such as, and this is one example--dealing with apparent transgressions in an (...) (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee — Kelly McKiernan
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Some very good comments in this thread (Dave and Larry especially have brought up some salient points), I'd like to paraphrase what I understand as the key learnings, with my comments in italics. LUGNET staff (admins) need to be aware of how (...) (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Rob Hendrix
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| | | | | | | | | | | | "Kelly J. McKiernan" <kelly.mckiernan@lugnet.com> wrote in message news:IFCuJu.A4A@lugnet.com... (...) Italics would work so much better if I weren't using the NNTP interface... (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee — Kelly McKiernan
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Yeah, I know, you'd think as a web developer I'd take better care of the various presentation methods. There's a dash between the key learning and comment, that should help a little. Kelly McKiernan LUGNET Administrator (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Grups —Andy Evans
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Grups is from the original Star Trek series -- the show where the kids die after reaching puberty. Andy Evans (Who's staying out of the debate, but is always ready to rise to the challenge of Star Trek trivia!) (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Grups —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | In lugnet.admin.general, Andy Evans wrote: <snip> (...) If I recall (strokes chin thoughtfully), the ep. was called 'Miri'--the oldest girl who started having a crush on JTK. As well, if I recall, it was either this one or 'The Children Shall Lead' (...) (19 years ago, 23-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Leonard Hoffman
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| | | | | | | | (...) What, you haven't been reading all two hundred posts over the past few days and the four hundred emails discussing how best to respond. (...) Well thanks Chris. Maybe you could tell us what that 'something' is that you're waiting for? (...) (...) (19 years ago, 25-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Tony Alexander
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| | | | | | | (...) I have managed several quick-serve restauarant businesses, in one of which I had responsibility over more than 50 employees. I also managed 2 college dormitory floors, one with over 100 residents, both with residents from around the world. A (...) (19 years ago, 23-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) Different than an online community, I'm sure you would agree, but clearly a source of a lot of useful insight, thanks for sharing it. (...) And elsewhere, that's been my management experience (in real life) as well. (snipped the rest, all (...) (19 years ago, 23-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Tony Alexander
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| | | | | | | | | (...) I'm sure there are many ways to define this, but what I mean is being so strict about following the minutiae of rules and regulations that enforcement becomes/is perceived as becoming overbearing, personal rather than professional, punitive, (...) (19 years ago, 23-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) I'm not going to reply in detail (although there is stuff I agree with and stuff I disagree with...) Instead, I'm going to ask you how *you* would handle a particular post, as an exercise. (URL) a post that flogs. There is nothing in that post (...) (19 years ago, 23-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Chris Magno
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Yes Larry it is EASY! I KNOW what ~I~ would do. walk away! ignore it. IF this is what you did, then good for you. if not...... (shrug) more of the same-ol' same-ol' i guess. The ToU and its enfocement should be more about the "spirit" then the (...) (19 years ago, 23-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | The light touch (was Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) OK, to clarify, in your opinion, are you saying this particular clause of the ToU should not be enforced at all? Or just not in this particular case with respect to this particular post? If not at all, why not? It's really a hot button with (...) (19 years ago, 23-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Anders Isaksson
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) The question was not directed at me, but I can give *my* perception of the situation. "No-one bothered to comment in public on the offense" This means that other people, reading just the groups, not having insight into private e-mails, other (...) (19 years ago, 23-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Tony Alexander
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| | | | | | | | | | | Quick note: I'm at work on lunch break, and can't give this the thought I want to word it as well as it should be... (...) Nobody's perfect, and everybody makes mistakes. I'm not sure if it constitues a TOU violation, as I'm not as well-versed in (...) (19 years ago, 25-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Mike Walsh
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | "Tony Alexander" <tw0nst3r@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:IFIJDx.FMy@lugnet.com... [ ... snipped ... ] (...) should (...) that (...) there (...) [ ... snipped ... ] Shouldn't Admin posting such as the one above be posted by "LUGNET Admin" as (...) (19 years ago, 25-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | light touches (was Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Yes. If posting an official warning is the right level of touch, that is. I said that after Tony had a chance to answer, I'd say what the admins did, and my guess at why. I'm still hoping Chris will answer why he thinks nothing should be done, (...) (19 years ago, 25-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Tony Alexander
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Sorry to reply to my own post, but a few caveats (still at work, but thought of more and had a chance): * I'm a member/user, not an admin; as such, my immediate reply to seeing this post would have been: "Hmmm...not technic...on to the next (...) (19 years ago, 25-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) (it's possible other circumstances might alter this slightly, like if it's been excessively long between offenses-- like-- years, or if the user consciously defies being told otherwise): 1) First time offender A) Someone (officially or not) (...) (19 years ago, 25-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Chris Magno
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| | | | | | | | (...) so why not here??? (...) can this be discussed now and here? please. (...) YOU guys are/were heavy handed. IMO. The other approach is the one that tony so eloquently described. LESS is more. That's a serious question. It's easy to say that the (...) (19 years ago, 23-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general) !
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| | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Jason S. Mantor
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| | | | | | No offense taken, Lenny. My day job for the last seven years has been "administering" an e-commerce web site that encompasses several hundred different organizations and handles anywhere from 5 to 7 billion US dollars in transactions each year. I (...) (19 years ago, 24-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —David Eaton
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| | | | (...) Another personal preference: don't call it a committee. Treat it casually. "We asked some people if they wouldn't mind giving us some feedback". Calling it a committee implies that it's a group with power and responsibility. It could possibly (...) (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee — Kelly McKiernan
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| | | | | (...) For informal functions, that's probably a good idea. The LPRV, on the other hand, did/does have real power and responsibility: the power to change and steer and directly influence an important part of LUGNET's direction, and the responsibility (...) (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Kevin L. Clague
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| | | | | | | In lugnet.admin.general, Kelly McKiernan wrote: <snip> (...) Nowhere in the charter did it say "stay on task and avoid time-consuming loops like debating personalities or picking apart past actions". Why would you create a charter with the working (...) (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee — Kelly McKiernan
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| | | | | | | | (...) That was my paraphrasing of the original information I saw about the purpose for the committee, I apologize for not being specific. (...) I'm assuming the "you" is directed at the LTT, and not me personally, so I'll respond as such. The (...) (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Kevin L. Clague
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| | | | | | | | | (...) <snip> (...) You are correct. I was referring to the LTT as a group. Had you been chair I would have had much more faith in the process. <snip> (...) It most certainly was what I received. (...) I do not beleive that the way Chris was (...) (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —David Eaton
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| | | | | | | | | (...) I think this is a fantastic discussion-- one that we started on the list, but (as I've said on the list) I *REALLY* want admin feedback like this from admins on a continual basis. Seriously, this is the most effectual I've felt yet about the (...) (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | | | In lugnet.admin.general, Kelly McKiernan wrote: Thanks, Kelly, for your comments about this. I have only one point I'd like to make: (...) Whereas I think it is inevitable *eventually*. That's not a slur against admins, it's just human nature. But (...) (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general, FTX)
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| | | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —David Eaton
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| | | | | | (...) Well, as far as I could tell, the LPRV pretty much just had the privilage to see the document before it went into effect. And, I'm not opposed to that, really. I mean, I fully recognize and support the desire to strengthen a document before (...) (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | Re: LPRV? —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | (...) Well, I had to pick somewhere to ask this, I chose here... I would like to know where the "V" came from? I never saw anything that started with "V" attached to (URL) the committee charter>, only the "V" in "review". Was it just a typo that (...) (19 years ago, 26-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: LPRV? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) The V in review. I didn't pick it! Matt did I think because he set up the list (1) I would have went with LPPRC (Lugnet Policy & Procedure Review Committee) Too late now though! 1 - you do-s the work you get-s to picks the acronymie-s (19 years ago, 26-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Kevin L. Clague
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| | | | (...) <snip> (...) This is a huge point. Proofreaders. My perception of the group was that we were not able to agree or disagree with anything in the document, rather we were to simply point out syntax and grammar mistakes. Given that I openly don't (...) (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | Re: I resign from the LPRV committee —Kevin L. Clague
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| | | | In lugnet.admin.general, Kevin L. Clague wrote: <snip> (...) Larry has provided me with convincing evidence that the email breakdown from his work to me on yahoo was not his doing. I will ask this though, given that you knew the email conduit was (...) (19 years ago, 22-Apr-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
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