Subject:
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Re: Excellent news!
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:03:14 GMT
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Viewed:
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1262 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
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That’s an interesting argument. For me, the problem arises when we try to
grant one person the authority to kill another. A state-sanctioned
execution, once the prisoner has already been rendered harmless, seems to
me no different morally from a deliberate and willful murder.
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Surely you’d agree that the victims differ from the two cases of loss of
life-- one “victim” is a murderer, and the other is an innocent. Therein
lies all the difference in my view.
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Bruce has already mentioned the problem of certainty, which is a pretty
strong objection IMO. The current system has numerous examples of convicted
people who didn’t commit the murders of which they’re accused, so we’re
actually executing (or scheduled to execute) innocents.
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Certainly not knowingly. Nothing in life is certain, death and taxes
notwithstanding, so I fail to see why this issue should be held to an impossible
standard. Yeah, it’s irreversible, but work as hard as humanly possbile to make
the system work correctly, and let it be. Where is the indignation when
innocents are murdered by murderers who are released from prison (or who get off
through a system that would rather be safe than sorry)?
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Sure, there are examples in which MurdererX is caught on film murdering
VictimX, but those are rare instances. Some cases have even been overturned
despite eyewitnesses swearing in court that PersonX is MurdererX, such as
when DNA evidence exonerates PersonX years after the trial. As long as this
uncertainty is present, the entire system of capital punishment is, to me,
untenable. Better to incarcerate for life, thereby allowing the possibility
of corrective action in event of error.
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How about frozen stasis? I know we don’t have the technology now, but what if
we did? Because I am hearing from this tangent that you think capital
punishment would be justified if 100% was possible. Or are you merely
requiring impossible criteria to essentially render the issue mute;-)
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I don’t believe capital punishment is malicious; in fact, one could argue
that allowing a murderer to live is malicious to the surviving family of the
innocent victim.
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Hmm... That’s a little too gray for me. The murder shouldn’t give the
victim’s family any particular power over anyone else’s life and death, IMO.
The family may be found to be entitled to compensation, but it strikes me as
objectionable to list the convicted murder’s life as part of its
compensation.
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In my mind, the murderer’s life is forfeit. He no longer possesses any
rights. He does owe the family a debt which can only be paid with his life.
This is the only way I can see that ultimately respects the sanctity of life.
The ultimate price must be paid or regard for life becomes debased.
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Yeah, it’s a valid question, because Christians are on both sides of this
issue. The problem in my mind is applying personal ethics (turn the other
cheek, for example) to those on a societal level. Society simply cannot
simply “forgive” criminals for their behavior, or soon there would be no
order, and I don’t think it was ever Jesus’ intention to advocate that.
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That troubles me, though; under that stricture, couldn’t “society” mandate
the extermination of people with, say, double-jointed thumbs while still
maintaining individual adherence to personal ethics?
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I’m not sure how. Many ethical Germans objected to the Third Reich. Who
knows-- if more had, how would history have been altered? I think the most
moral societies begin with the morality of their individuals and their nuclear
(W pronunciation;-) families.
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Personally, I do not think that forcing criminals to pay the consequences
for their crimes is unchristian. So I don’t believe that the teachings of
Jesus (as in the Beatitudes) can be made to apply to a society, but only to
individuals. The society would subsequently be transformed by persons who
adopted Jesus’ teachings. Does that make sense or come off as a dodge?
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I don’t think it’s a dodge, though I’m not sure where it leaves us. Sure,
criminals should be accountable for their crimes, but I don’t believe that
capital punishment is the proper way to hold them accountable.
It’s kind of like the argument against torture. That is, we abominate
torture not just because of what it does to the torture victim but also
because of what it does to the torturer. The same, for me, applies to
capital punishment; the society that (in essence) votes to execute someone
who has been rendered harmless is a lessened society.
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I disagree. Do you really hold then that “life is most precious”? If society
values life above all, then society is lessened if it doesn’t force those who
don’t to pay the ultimate price.
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(Hey, we’re all being so pleasant in this discussion. The real acrimony is
currently being dumped on the admins, so ot.debate has to content itself with
civil discourse.)
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What a nighmare. I believe that all uncensored public boards will eventually
go down the drain because, unfortunately, there are people out there who haven’t
the maturity or responsiblity to “censor” themselves. It’s just a matter of
time as to how long they will take to sabotage them. Which is sad. But then
again, LUGNET is privately owned, so there is hope for its survival.
JOHN
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Excellent news!
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| At this point I should restate my standard disclaimer that I see no reason to conclude that any moral absolutes can be known by humans with certainty. With this in mind, any seemingly absolute statements I make along the lines of “reality TV is (...) (20 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Excellent news!
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| (...) Bruce has already mentioned the problem of certainty, which is a pretty strong objection IMO. The current system has numerous examples of convicted people who didn’t commit the murders of which they’re accused, so we’re actually executing (or (...) (20 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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