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| (...) Hello Mark: Since your post hasn’t yet been answered, I’ll take a stab at it. You’ve already raised some good objections yourself, upon which I’ll elaborate. You ask what would constitute a satisfactory deterrent/punishment for the planned (...) (20 years ago, 2-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) No way, you've got to be kidding me. Now I know how we massage a budget here in our little sewer district to show numbers we want, so I can imagine a criminal institution can show how it costs $1/day to support a convict. Sorry, I don't buy (...) (20 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) (I'm breaking my own self-imposed rule about posting here, so I will deal with me later;-) I have a question I'd like to ask you that in my mind relates to this topic, Dave! Which is more precious: life or freedom? JOHN (20 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Either one, however, is obscenely expensive. And getting moreso. Meanwhile, the penal system gains more and more power in voting blocs, etc. And lawmakers make more things felonies that shouldn't be. You know, if a chunk of my taxes weren't (...) (20 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| (...) You have to consider the cost of judges wages, court time, time waiting for court cases (spent in jail-more than ten years on average if I remember). That could easily add to more than the cost of incarceration. Also, consider that your (...) (20 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) We do work them. The vast majority of prisoners in the penal system participate in some sort of work program, be it washing dishes, road side trash detail, or whatnot. But, as with everything in prison, work is a priviledge and there is always (...) (20 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| (...) Be careful--I hear that you can be a real tyrant, so you're in for quite a conflict with yourself. (...) Hmm. At the risk of over-lawyering, I guess I'd need to be sure of the parameters of the question. Which is more precious: one person's (...) (20 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) (that's not actually a fair example, because those prisoners are trying to get from death-without-freedom to life-without-freedom. It's not an exchange of life and freedom.) Obtaining life-without-freedom opens the possibility of it being (...) (20 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) I'm not sure what "death-without-freedom" means, or why it might be of any value to the soon-to-be-deceased. Or did you mean "inescapable death" versus "life without possibility of parole?" (...) If the option were put forth as life with (...) (20 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Who told you that!?? Was it one of my jerk employees?[1] (...) I agree with your assessments. I think that if certain individuals hadn't valued liberty more than life, our country wouldn't have been formed, and generally speaking, liberty for (...) (20 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) That's an interesting argument. For me, the problem arises when we try to grant one person the authority to kill another. A state-sanctioned execution, once the prisoner has already been rendered harmless, seems to me no different morally from (...) (20 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) First, a quote: "You won't have Dick Nixon to kick around anymore." -Dick Nixon (to the press, after losing the governor's race in California, who, sure enough, didn't have the wisdom to stick with his promise and got the ultimate kicking (...) (20 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote: <snip> (...) Surely you'd agree that the victims differ from the two cases of loss of life-- one "victim" is a murderer, and the other is an innocent. Therein lies all the difference in my view. (...) (...) (20 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Thanks. Resume kicking position:-) (...) Well, humans only live so long. I see little difference in a sentence of 40 years and one of 3 consecutive life sentences. I love it when someone becomes eligible for parole after a couple of hundred (...) (20 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) If you can prove that all confessions are 100% truthful. What if he's lying to protect his sister? Sure he probably deserves a penalty for lying about it, but the needle? ROSCO (20 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Bruce has already mentioned the problem of certainty, which is a pretty strong objection IMO. The current system has numerous examples of convicted people who didn’t commit the murders of which they’re accused, so we’re actually executing (or (...) (20 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Certainly not knowingly. Nothing in life is certain, death and taxes notwithstanding, so I fail to see why this issue should be held to an impossible standard. Yeah, it's irreversible, but work as hard as humanly possbile to make the system (...) (20 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) That well may be, but my point was and is to try and address the moral issue of execution directly. Your post reminds me of that classic scene in "Mr. Mom" where Jack is using the "Rocky" analogy. "Which Rocky?" :-) JOHN (20 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Hey, that's an important distinction to make, and I don't think that I was making it in our part of the thread. But let's make sure we're clear-- You're debating about the morality of execution itself (presumably in cases in which guilt is (...) (20 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Yes. I was hoping to take one at a time. JOHN (...) (20 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| At this point I should restate my standard disclaimer that I see no reason to conclude that any moral absolutes can be known by humans with certainty. With this in mind, any seemingly absolute statements I make along the lines of “reality TV is (...) (20 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Not sure where you are going with that since no one is going to live a couple of hundred years. (...) So we don't murder innocent people. (...) My point exactly. (...) How so? (...) No. There's lots of people who confess to crimes that they (...) (20 years ago, 5-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Well, that's my point. These types of absurd sentences are given out anyway. (...) We do that anyway with our system that releases criminals on technicalities and those criminals go on to kill again. (...) I was trying to focus specifically on (...) (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Why would you be so reticent to conclude that the taking of an innocent human life for no reason or purpose, but for, say amusement, isn't absolutely wrong and evil for everyone, not just you yourself? (...) Yes, but according to you, nothing (...) (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Because if a person is doing it for amusement, then chances are that it’s not absolutely wrong for that person. The most broadly inclusive conclusion I can draw is to say that the taking of life is generally considered to be objectionable to (...) (20 years ago, 7-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) I believe the point of three consecutive life setences is so that if someone becomes eligible for parole, they would still have to serve the next consecutive sentence (used in states that do not have "Life without any possible parole" (...) (20 years ago, 8-Mar-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Well, (URL) this guy> wasn't executed, but the point is served. Dave! (20 years ago, 4-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) **snip** (...) Correction. Make that "Minto ran an afternoon phone-in show in Western PA. Seems that Marty couldn't figure out when to keep his hateful mouth shut. He opined on-air last week that the Pope probably isn't going to go to heaven, (...) (20 years ago, 14-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Pretty much zealots like this guy are the reason I've stopped attending Church Proper. And that 'born again' = getting into heaven? Yeah, nice on ya... Idiots all. Dave K (20 years ago, 14-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| (...) And (URL) this guy> was executed, so the point is served again. Dave! (19 years ago, 21-Nov-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) And so was (URL) this guy,> so the point is served once more. Dave! (19 years ago, 3-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Dang, my name is still being dragged into this nine months later - I've heard of a pregnant pause..... -->Bruce<-- (19 years ago, 3-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) So let me get this straight-- is it conditional for me to prove that everyone ever executed actually committed their crimes and then you’ll agree to the death penalty? What about the fate of a man who kills 5 women and children during a (...) (19 years ago, 4-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Since I dragged Bruce back into this, I'll field the question for him (though he's welcome to refute or add to it, of course!) (...) Of course not! The execution of a person who has been rendered harmless is indistinguishable from coldblooded (...) (19 years ago, 4-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) I reject your equivocation. In one case, the victim is an innocent, and in the other the "victim" is a coldblooded murderer. Being rendered "harmless" does in no way make a person "blameless". (...) No system is perfect. To criticize otherwise (...) (19 years ago, 4-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| --SNIP-- (...) Preserving the sanctity of life by State-sanctioned killing. Interesting argument there. Tim (19 years ago, 4-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) I see that you are rebutting my "equivocation" with a straw man. Nowhere do I claim that the murderer is blameless, but I don't equate his "blamefulness" (sorry about that malapropism) with some "right" to execute him. And the person (or (...) (19 years ago, 4-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) You've summed it up very nicely, except that you state it as an absolute rather than a condition for me to even consider the question. (...) Here's a sword - are you willing to personally execute him yourself? No, it's not a facetious (...) (19 years ago, 4-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Do I have to kill him with a sword? Cuz I always wanted to try whipping a person to death with a wet noodle. Or or or, maybe forcing him to eat bananas until he croaks. Now that would be an execution!! -Lenny (19 years ago, 4-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) That may present a problem, but not because of a lack of volunteers. Didn't several hundred members of our civilized and Christian nation sign up to help execute Gary Gilmore? Dave! (19 years ago, 4-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) I just envisioned a new cash source for the government! Selling a raffle to see who gets to execute someone! Or better yet, an auction! -Lenny (19 years ago, 4-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Well, I always knew you could noodle a drawing to death, but death by potassium overdose? And here I just got back from the store with bananas... -->Bruce<-- (19 years ago, 4-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Full lottery, none of this "scratcher" nonsense. Now that would be putting money where your mouth is! :-) -->Bruce<-- (19 years ago, 4-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) I like this. Definite potential as a revenue raiser and a crowd pleaser. But I think you might be onto something much much bigger. Think of the money and time we'd all save if we skipped the admittedly only dubiously successful process of (...) (19 years ago, 5-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| (...) Do I sense some kind of deep-seated resentment here???? ;) ROSCO (19 years ago, 5-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| (...) Only my deep sense of loss in not being able to live a full and normal life. We all have our crosses to bear, no? ;-) Richard Still baldly going... (19 years ago, 5-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| (...) I have it! None of this outcasts, psychotics, and losers nonsense - who cares about them? How about this: Politicians who are no longer in office get thrown in the execution pool and the lottery winner gets his/her pick to off! God, what a (...) (19 years ago, 5-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| Why would you *possibly* limit it to politicians not in office? (...) (19 years ago, 5-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | | | Re: Excellenter news!
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| (...) See L. Sprague de Camp's "The Goblin Tower" (and the entire Novarian series): the king rules for some set period. After that time period, good king or bad, his head is chopped off, which becomes a grisly prize when it is tossed to the waiting (...) (19 years ago, 5-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| (...) I've been to weddings like that. Dave! (19 years ago, 6-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| (...) Sounds to me like a praying mantis honeymoon. JOHN (19 years ago, 6-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Wait, I don't remember you guys being at my wedding.... -->The Unbeheaded King<-- (19 years ago, 6-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Really? We were so famous, they did a (URL) about us (the handsome one is me) JOHN (19 years ago, 6-Jan-06, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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