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Should Saddam should get a fair trial in Iraq? Whether he does or not, well we'll see I guess, but that seems to be what Dubya wants. I'm just wondering whether the many non-US citizens who've been held in Guantanamo Bay for over 2 year without (...) (21 years ago, 18-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) I think this is why Dubya is keeping such a "I have my own opinion but I'll keep it to myself and let the Iraqis decide..." I mean, the hypocricy can only go so far... "Hey! Look over there!! We captured SH!! Don't look over here, what with (...) (21 years ago, 18-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Rumsfeld claimed that Saddam would be treated as a POW under the Geneva Convention, but that Convention has already been violated by the endless broadcasting of humiliating video and photos of Saddam following his capture. (...) Heh. The (...) (21 years ago, 18-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) What ever happened to all those maps, satellite imagery, intelligence reports and eye witness accounts which pinpointed exactly where the weapons were? Have they been lost? (URL) Yesterday:> Balir: "The Iraq Survey Group has already found (...) (21 years ago, 18-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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Hey, an excuse to read (ok skim) the Geneva Convention. Cool. (...) But what about this? ( from (URL) ) "Prisoners of war who, owing to their physical or mental condition, are unable to state their identity, shall be handed over to the medical (...) (21 years ago, 18-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) A good question. I know there was an uproar when US POW's in Iraq were featured even briefly on Al-Jazeera, for example. Hussein was able, according to reports, to identify himself as "the President of Iraq" to his American captors, so this (...) (21 years ago, 18-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Well I get the impression that Cheney's hideyholes tend to be a bit posher, but ya... history is written by the victors, after all (or the apparent victors at the time of writing, in this case)... (21 years ago, 18-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Ah, the pesky WoMD... I figure they all were sequestered to an undisclosed location. Perhaps in Sweden. Maybe we should invade Sweden to go check. OK, who's in? As for this from the Beeb article where Blix talks about the WoMD that was (...) (21 years ago, 18-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Yeah that's annoying, but just the sort of thing the media loves to broadcast. How do you stop them? Anyhow, my question remains: Has the "Red Cross or any other impartial humanitarian organization" ever actually identified any of the video on (...) (21 years ago, 18-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) (URL) yes> Scott A Or is this just the media trying to spice up (...) (21 years ago, 18-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Thank you. That's half of the answer I was looking for. Does anyone have a link where the same impartial humanitarian organization declares the Al-Jazeera footage humiliating? I found some hints with a quick google search, but nothing quite as (...) (21 years ago, 18-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Wait, I found it. (URL) like this Bush quote from that article. "If not, the people who mistreat the prisoners will be treated as war criminals," he said Sunday morning. (...) I imagine someone will try to take him up on his suggestion. (...) (21 years ago, 18-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) You really are grasping a staws; from their (URL) site>: "The treatment of prisoners of war, again the rules of war are fairly clear, all parties, all sides are expected to treat the prisoners humanely and in accordance with international (...) (21 years ago, 18-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Some might suggest putting Dubya in front of something else... Dave! (21 years ago, 18-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Heh, beat you to it. (URL) Your point is facile. Even if nobody did condemn the way US troops were (...) I'm not sure I made a point, other than that google is not the best way to search for old news. I did find it before you did though, or (...) (21 years ago, 18-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Since it's illegal to threaten the life of the president of the US, I shall not tell you how I interpreted that line... That said, I do not believe that Dubya did anything that would warrant such a measure. If he did what he did out of the (...) (21 years ago, 18-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Scott never does that. :-) Neither do any of the rest of us here. ;-) (...) Rule #1 if you see a big nesting, deeper than 3 or 4, and it's you and Scott(1), and you're not getting anywhere with your point, give up. (...) International Criminal (...) (21 years ago, 18-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Try: (URL) :) (...) The international criminal court; Bush refuses to sign up to it as your countrymen *could* end up in jail *if* they commit war crimes. Frankly, I feel war criminals belong in jail! Scott A (21 years ago, 19-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Nice try, but when I entered "Amnesty International Iraq Humiliating Video" in their search engine I got *Zero* links. That's what I'm talking about with the internet erroding the news archives, because I'm pretty sure they did have a news (...) (21 years ago, 19-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) See: (URL) United States has suspended over $47m in military aid to 35 countries that have not signed deals to grant American soldiers immunity from prosecution for war crimes... ...The US does not recognise the ICC, saying its forces could be (...) (21 years ago, 19-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Thanks for the link. It highlights yet another reason the world is not yet ready for a global court system. Money. Until the economic disparity in the world is reduced significantly, there is too great a possiblilty that economically (...) (21 years ago, 19-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) That hasn't bothered rich countries from joining in thus far. Richer than the US, per capita, I might add. So whose money, bribing whom, to what end? If it were for money alone, the ICC would be swamped in trials already. (...) The EU has had (...) (21 years ago, 19-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Does it really matter who or what money? The fact that it's possible, and the previously linked article demonstrates that it's already happening means that the ICC is being influenced by money. That needs fixing before the ICC will ever work. (...) (21 years ago, 19-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Don Heyse wrote: <snip> (...) A tangent-- I read many newsgroups, and someone's .siggy file caought my eye--it says "I don't believe in capital punishment anymore for when was the last time you saw a rich person get (...) (21 years ago, 19-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) 1) That's not the best reason to dislike it, 2) I know what forum that's from... :-) so what do you think of habnut's recent action? Was ryu being babyish or justified given everything? (21 years ago, 20-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Agree, but it's a good one. (...) Both parties were just childish--"It's my birthday so I wanted to post a hottie!! Why is everyone picking on me???" "Oh fine! If you don't want my hotties then someone else can do it!!!" This is where my 'put (...) (21 years ago, 20-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) I think actually that was what sohmer did, at least it seemed that way to me early this morning but I was a bit bleary eyed... (...) Or in this case just use it! Tangentially I believe that Todd has that feature under development for here. (21 years ago, 20-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Yes. And "to what end" as well, don't leave that one out. (...) And what do you propose to "fix it", if anything? (...) Two things: if money could buy charges in the ICC that easily, the court would be overwhelmed with legal actions already. (...) (21 years ago, 20-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Charge anyone caught bribing smaller countries with war crimes? (...) Sorry, I blame my crappy US lack of education for that one. I meant the Balkans. (...) Yeah, but North Africa is geographically closer to Europe than the US. And there is a (...) (21 years ago, 22-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Since it's Christmas^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hthe Holidays, I figure I should throw in this nugget for you debators. I also think this is the problem with Libertarianism (is that a word?) In Theory it sounds like a really good system, but it falls (...) (21 years ago, 22-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Good example. The system has been set up to exempt tickets from due process, in my view, because they say driving is a priv, and it's not a criminal offence but rather a civil infraction and a bunch of other stuff. That's their explanation, (...) (21 years ago, 22-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) It (in pure form) hasn't been tried in practice. (...) Why? Take as your base assumption that people are basically good, with some exceptions, and set up your system to reward goodness and punish badness. Suffering the consequences of your (...) (21 years ago, 22-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) In some states, driving has been argued to be more of a right than a privledge. I don't actually know how they work it in the EU, so maybe it's not the best example, but it was easy to lay out. (21 years ago, 22-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think that's a bad assumption. Human beings didn't evolve to what we are by being nice to all the other furry creatures, or for that matter, other local tribes of human beings. Goodness came later, when we had time for that sort of thing. (...) (21 years ago, 22-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) True, but neither has pure Communism, pure Socialism, or pure Democracy, for that matter. I'm not convinced that we can meaningfully speculate what a "pure" incarnation of any of these systems would be like, except by undertaking selective (...) (21 years ago, 22-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Agreed. I don't think you actually can have a pure anything. But you can have systems that are more libertarian or less, and more socialist or less, and more fascist or less, etc. I claim that the more libertarian you go, the better things (...) (21 years ago, 22-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) In the case of the USA, I'd like to change that to: "I don't believe in capital punishment anymore for when was the last time you saw a rich white person get executed. It's my feeling that the death penalty is barbaric. The way it is applied (...) (21 years ago, 22-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) I agree. I once read that the nearest we have ever come to libertarianism was Pinochet's Chile… OK if you were rich I suppose. Check past posts in this very group and you'll see that libertarianism been comprehensively rubbished by everyone (...) (21 years ago, 22-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) I stress again that I find this relevant. (...) Oh bribery is a crime all right. But I doubt it can fit the definition of war crime. Care to prove me wrong? (...) True, it is close to Europe (we use the term "Mediterranean Basin" as well when (...) (21 years ago, 22-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Yes, but I don't, so I can't really add much here. Perhaps if you tell us *why* you find it so relevent I might be able to reply to that. (...) No, you got me there. We usually hire professional lawyers and politicians around here to "fix" (...) (21 years ago, 23-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Ok. I find it relevant because *you* brought it up, and have not ellaborated what you meant. It's very easy to leave vague suspicion in the air, so what I'm asking you is to be blunt and say whom, in this regard, bribes/is bribed and *to do (...) (21 years ago, 23-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Actually I think Scott brought it up and the answers you seek are in the article he provided earlier in this thread: (URL) for some reason you mysteriously deleted in this post: (URL) you so desire, you can reprint the entire BBC article here. (...) (21 years ago, 23-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) Let me get this straight, then: the article only mentions "pressure" by the USA, when trying to make sure others *EXEMPT* US citizens from prosecution in ICC. In essence, are you accusing your own country of covertly "bribing" those who grant (...) (21 years ago, 23-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Justice for all.....
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(...) (URL) Example>: Mentally ill man executed in US - "The state of Arkansas has executed a man with a severe mental illness. Charles Singleton, 44, was forcibly given anti-psychotic drugs which made him lucid enough under court guidelines to be (...) (21 years ago, 9-Jan-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | UN Gets It Right!
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(...) That is a big "(URL)". But it looks like Bush will not get his way on this: (URL) War crimes immunity bid fails>-"For the past two years, I have spoken quite strongly against the exemption and I think it would be unfortunate for one to press (...) (20 years ago, 24-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: UN Gets It Right!
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(...) Cool. I think our one-sided participation in the "world community" is messed up. We should either withdraw from the UN, strap on the six-guns, and do our thing. Or pay our dues, submit to things like world courts, and go along to get along. (...) (20 years ago, 24-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: UN Gets It Right!
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(...) Yes. (...) Yes. (...) Yes, and ride on with our trusty sidekick Britain. (...) This is not possible and unconstitutional. (...) It is a farce, as exemplified by Sudan heading the human rights advisory council. One world order is a pipe dream (...) (20 years ago, 24-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: UN Gets it Right!
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(...) I trust you do not mean that war crimes are constitutional? ;) (...) I'm sure many others would say Bush heading it would also be a "farce". After all, it is Bush's record on human rights which stopped him getting the ICC exemption extended. (...) (20 years ago, 24-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | One world order is a pipe dream (was Re: UN Gets It Right!)
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(...) I love the imprecision of this :-) Perhaps 'it is not possible for the US to pay its dues' - and its not like the US doesn't have buckets of money, so presumably its debt to the world (personified in many ways by the UN) is overwhelmingly (...) (20 years ago, 25-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: One world order is a pipe dream (was Re: UN Gets It Right!)
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(...) Your command of the obvious is impressive. Sorry I didn't snip the "or pay our dues" part; glad you found the "imprecision" amusing. Pettifogging makes boring conversation IMO. For instance if I were to rejoin by saying that your use of "its" (...) (20 years ago, 25-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: One world order is a pipe dream (was Re: UN Gets It Right!)
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(...) You could well be right. I don't know who came up with it. I recall being a bit surprised myself the first time I heard it being applied in practice. Since then I have seen it work successfully on a factory floor, in a sales force, and in a (...) (20 years ago, 25-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: One world order is a pipe dream (was Re: UN Gets It Right!)
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(...) Seriously, only a thinker could come up with such a strategy. (...) It is also commonly applied in classroom management and even juvenile delinquency rehabilitation. It's an awsomely powerful technique that reinforces the notion that kids will (...) (20 years ago, 25-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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