Subject:
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Re: Justice for all.....
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:40:39 GMT
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Viewed:
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1161 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Don Heyse wrote:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Pedro Silva wrote:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Don Heyse wrote:
> > > Thanks for the link. It highlights yet another reason the world
> > > is not yet ready for a global court system. Money. Until the
> > > economic disparity in the world is reduced significantly, there is
> > > too great a possiblilty that economically disadvantaged countries
> > > can be bribed. Even more patience is required for that one, I think.
> >
> > That hasn't bothered rich countries from joining in thus far.
> > Richer than the US, per capita, I might add. So whose money,
> > bribing whom, to what end?
>
> Does it really matter who or what money?
Yes. And "to what end" as well, don't leave that one out.
> The fact that it's possible,
> and the previously linked article demonstrates that it's already
> happening means that the ICC is being influenced by money. That needs
> fixing before the ICC will ever work.
And what do you propose to "fix it", if anything?
> > If it were for money alone, the ICC would be swamped in trials already.
>
> I don't know what you mean by this.
Two things: if money could buy charges in the ICC that easily, the court would
be overwhelmed with legal actions already. If it were money that countries
sought on it, they would be incredibly disappointed, as this court has the
purpose of establishing penal sentences and not fines or indemnities (read,
arrest criminals rather than making them pay off)
> > > However, now that the EU has a single currency, perhaps they could start
> > > a bit smaller with an EUCC, show everyone how well it works, and slowly
> > > try to entice other nations to join.
> >
> > The EU has had an European Court of Justice for a number of years now,
> > and so far no problems have arisen; I suspect there is no need for a
> > specific court aimed at war crimes, them being conspicuously absent
> > from the EU's internal life.
> > Also, all the current 15 memberstates have signed up to the ICC, as
> > well as 9 of the 10 upcoming members (exception being the Czech Republic
> > - don't ask me why, I don't know).
>
> That's great. Now get those pesky Czechs to sign up. Bring in the
> Baltics, and some North African countries. Then run with it for a few
> years to show us how well it all works. With 911 in *our* recent past,
> some of us are just a bit more paranoid over here.
The Baltics are in (part of the 10 upcoming members mentioned before). The North
African countries are not part of Europe... so I don't see a need to refer them
- you had previously asked about the EU's stance on the matter, and that's what
I was addressing.
The thing about your idea of letting the RotW "test" the court before the US
thinks of joining is that it sets a double standard for no better reason than,
in your own words, paranoia.
> > The amazing thing is how noone in these nations seems to be bothered by the
> > ICC... I tend to think the excuse of "others will sue us for this and that,
> > blablabla" is rather lame, since being *accused* does not imply being
> > *condemned*. If you've done nothing wrong, and the burden of proof is not on
> > you, why worry?
>
> Have you ever been in court?
Nope, I've never been on trial or accusing anyone. Which is not that awkward,
given age and legal system involved :-)
But I do follow court rulings & procedures.
> I don't think that burden of proof stuff
> always works as well in actual practice as it does in theory.
Please ellaborate what you mean.
> Anyhow,
> is there a link to the rules used by the ICC? I'd like to read (ok skim)
> them and see what they say about it.
http://www.icc-cpi.int/php/index.php
Just browse it a little and see what you can find.
Pedro
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Justice for all.....
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| (...) Charge anyone caught bribing smaller countries with war crimes? (...) Sorry, I blame my crappy US lack of education for that one. I meant the Balkans. (...) Yeah, but North Africa is geographically closer to Europe than the US. And there is a (...) (21 years ago, 22-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Justice for all.....
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| (...) Does it really matter who or what money? The fact that it's possible, and the previously linked article demonstrates that it's already happening means that the ICC is being influenced by money. That needs fixing before the ICC will ever work. (...) (21 years ago, 19-Dec-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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