 | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Dan Boger
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| | | (...) exactly. well said. Dan (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) Sure. Create more martyrs. Great Idea. This sounds like the Israeli model to deal with terrorists. Does it work for them? Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Dan Boger
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| | | | | (...) Israel has been doing the exact thing the US has been, which is not working - limited responce. They bomb a street, Israel attacks a command post. They shoot at a schoolbus, Israel takes out a training camp. It's the _limiting_ of that (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | (...) Well they need to be more limited. (...) ...and kill some women and children (...) So you think South Africa should have murdered the ANC, not do a deal with them? (...) Well what good is your inpute? Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Dan Boger
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| | | | | | | | (...) you can have you opinion, I can have mine. (...) and that's a terrible thing. However, I hate to ask, why were women and children in a terrorist command post? The only reason I can think of is that the terrorists are trying to hide behind a (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | (...) The limiting of the response limits the cost of committing these acts acceptable. Make the cost unacceptable, and the people willing to commit them will decrease, either through their own choices, or by the choices of their neighbors who don't (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | | | (...) Okay. But what part of the fact that they are willing to die for their cause didn't you get? Did you have some other worse punishment in mind? Tuesday's events were not brought on by a few moments passion -- but rather by the dreadful (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | (...) I get that. I wonder how willing they are for their friends and family to die as a result of their despicable acts? (...) I don't care about understanding them. I care about making the people who train them, the people who house them, the (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) so. This attitude *will* result in escalation of violence and the deaths of more innocent people. (...) They were more likely people who had been taught to see Americans as the ultimate enemy. Murderous they may have been, but they weren't (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Bill Farkas
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| | | | | | | | This is a response to random acts of absolute disinformation perpetrated by many in the discussion of Arab terrorism, of what our response should be, and the Palestinian plight - and whatever else spues forth from my inability to contain myself any (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Daniel Jassim
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| | | | | | | | (...) <snipped your reply to Richard> Regardless, we can all agree that killing the innocent for the sins of the leadership is wrong. Our attackers demonized Americans and committed a brutal criminal act that shattered the lives of many innocent (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Please make a donation via Paypal to the Red Cross! —Melody Brown
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| | | | | | | | | I am sure that most of us received the following message from Paypal If possible, please make a donation, even the smallest amounts count. There will always be someone in need who could use everthing possible right now. I am just about to donate (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.loc.au, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Bill Farkas
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| | | | | | | | (...) I don't think anyone is saying we should kill innocents. Official statements refer to "those responsible". However, regrettably some collateral damage is unavoidable. As a side note: when did this notion of "killing the innocent" in war arise? (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | | | (...) A lot has been picked over in terms of the rhetoric of peace, so fine...Does the euphemism "collateral damage" mean human lives? How can you be so callous? Aren't we in hell already? (...) What does "historically theirs" mean? I'd like an (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Bill Farkas
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Not callous, realistic. War is messy. Some bullets/bombs go astray. I'm not saying it's acceptable - just true. Every death is a tragedy. A deeper tragedy is that men choose evil and cause death needlessly. (...) huh? (...) At a specific time (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Dan Boger
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) let me add to this then - there has _always_ been a jewish settlement in Israel. Way before 1948. And since the late the 1880s, there has been a secular-jewish settlemens in Israel as well. So the UN did not give "a third group" a land that (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Didn't those folks actually go in and buy land from people who they sincerely and with good foundation believed to be the rightful owners at the time (1) rather than settle lands from which the previous owners had been evicted, which is the (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Bill Farkas
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) This is what the Romans did to Israel. So which claim is legitimate then? Israel's or the Palestinians? (...) From the governed, do they not? Either by consent or by conceding. At any rate, the governed allow what becomes. (...) But what would (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) [snip] (...) From whence does the 'legitimate ownership' of property arise? I say there is no such thing. Chris (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) I can see the argument. But... No matter what? What is the alternative, though? Property belongs to whoever has the bigger gun? (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Actually, I think the notion of ownership of real estate is corrupt not only because we can't possibly track it back to an original "fair" owner and then trace it forward to who ought to own it (for the most part), but also because I think (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) The declaration of war on the Barbary Pirates seems to have been constitutional... it's the closest analogue to a declaration of war on "terrorists", I'd say. Our borders were attacked and in this day and age that may require force projection (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | | | (...) I don't have a problem with a short and sweet black ops kinda thing executed with as close to surgical precision as we can get. I would prefer capture to killing for a variety reasons (i.e. no martyrs, we stay stainless before the world, (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Dave Johann
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| | | | | | | | (...) It's a nice idea, but since this is a 'War on Terrorism' and terrorist keep popping up where they aren't wanted, it's time to bear down for an extended game of 'Whack a Mole'. (tounge in check, but an interesting visual for me) (...) Well, (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | | | | (...) And given that metaphor I fail to see why it's a good idea. The need for vengeance will wear thin, and reality will set in. I insist that given a possibly impossible task, we should look for longer-lasting alternatives to war. And a lot of (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Dave Johann
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) I never claimed it was a good idea. I'm just pointing out that no good ideas have spung from this. We've proven in the past that quick surgical strikes slow the problem down, but don't stop it simply because zealots are willing to use their (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | (...) You don't specifically state this, but it seems the suggestion is that Koresh was a terrorist. You do know that that's incorrect, don't you? And further, that he (and his) was(were) victimized by the US people -- rather than the other way (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | | | | (...) C'mon, you have it all wrong!!! We don't go around doing bad things. We are the "good guys." And anyway, the U.S. Government co-signed it so that makes it okay... ...its "US" (U.S.?) or "THEM", right? -- Hop-Frog (who sips his Ruby Ridge over (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Dave Johann
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) No, we just put a spin on it to make it look like we do. (...) Yep, apparently that's what it now is. (...) -Dave (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Response to Misinformation (Some other perspectives on the tragedy) —Dave Johann
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| | | | | | | | (...) No, I make the suggestion that Koresh and his followers were fanatics. You don't have to be a terrorist to be fanatical. I'm pointing out that misguided religious folk make excellent fanatics. Give people what they want, and they will follow (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Dave Johann
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| | | | | | (...) Same here, Dan. As a student of history, I've always said two things-History always repeats itself and a limited war is a lost cause. Why is Israel having problems with terrorist activities? Because they won't deal with the problem. The keep (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | (...) deal (...) I agree, but I'm probably not thinking about the same problem as you are. The problem in Gaza is a problem of preceived land ownership, not terrorism. (...) army (...) and (...) And murdered many innocent Iraqis in the process. (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Dave Johann
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| | | | | | (...) Actually, it's a combination of the two, but I won't split hairs on this one. (...) That were being used as human shields and no, it doesn't sound familiar. Saddam kept hiding. QWB was quite public about where he's been. GWB wasn't anywhere (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | (...) < (...) So that makes it OK to murder them? (...) Weren't several thousand (est) innocent Americans just murdered for the pursuit of a (as yet unknown) goal? ROSCO (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) Jeez, you're willing to go a long way for the sake of equivocation. If they are being used as human shields, then the people using them as shields are responsible for their deaths. So, no--it's not okay to murder them, and the people using (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | (...) murder (...) cross (...) Not the same thing at all. Something closer would be if you buy a baseball bat...and kill me with it you are no more guilty than if you take that same bat and keep swinging it at a pile of baseballs when you know (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) Better or worse I will not comment on. I think your example is inapplicable to this situation, but I did want to point out that american law, at any rate, distinguishes between these cases... driving drunk and killing someone is negligent (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Eric Kingsley
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| | | | (...) Just in case you didn't notice "they" (terrorists) just made Martyrs out of thousands of people on 09/11/2001. That was as much a mistake for them as it was for Japan to attack Pearl Harbor 12/07/1941. We have Martyrs too and we will take (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) We do not share the same understanding of the term "martyr". (...) Then what? Will the deaths continue in Iraq and Israel? Will globalisation continue to exploit those in the developing world? Should we nurture despair? Should we live in fear? (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Eric Kingsley
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| | | | | (...) Obviously... (...) Much of this sounds like jibber jabber. As for preparing out children for future attacks I think we need to prepare them for the fact that this is a reality in the world and we are going to fight it. That means more people (...) (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Dave Johann
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| | | | | | | (...) Very true. The American public certainly didn't wan war on September 10th. Diabolic acts of wanton destruction and the tragic sacrifce of thousands of innocents has changed our collective mind. 92% of the American public support the idea of (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | (...) Take a look at you foreign policy again. (...) Education is also required in the west. (...) But what about the terrorists that the USA has harbored and helped in the past? What about them? Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | (...) D0 you actually have a plan, a suggested approach? I must have missed it. Or are you just spewing hate, as usual? ++Lar (23 years ago, 13-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Some other perspectives on the tragedy —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) Yes. (...) Indeed you have. (...) Larry I hate no one. I read your post on this issue and i see hate. Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 15-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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