Debate : 22122


Off-Topic / Debate / 22122

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) Why is that? What in your society, supposedly the freeest society on the planet, causes you to kill each other more often, per capita, than any other country in the world during peace time? I'll go so far as to grant you the premise that if (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Well lets see... According to that site only 0.00004 percent of people decide to abuse freedom by killing others with guns. And only 0.00006 percent of people decide to kill themselves with guns. So in the "supposedly freeest society" only (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) 25,000 violent deaths per year due to firearms is not a 'rampant problem'? 68 deaths a day 3 per hour. In the time it took us to write back and forth, say 3 hours, 9 people have died. 9 people whos violent "non accidental" deaths could have (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote: Massive ka-snip! (...) Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. -->Bruce<-- (but then again, those that don't adapt to changing conditions are destined for extinction) :-) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) And those that believe in dogma to the exclusion of rational thought are brain washed. Appealing to history to keep things the same as they were is not the same as learning from history in order to make oneself better. Saying you need guns in (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) You need to establish that - over the course of this and other threads you have repeatedly refered to the 1776 date as if that was the extent of people throwing off their governemtn in this country, and I have on more than one occassion (and (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) The point is that we don't live the same way today as we did in '76. And we don't live in the civil war era. And, again, both condtions were war-time scenarios, and, again, both times there were armies involved. THe civil war was the army of (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) And if there was a revolt today against Dubya, why do you think it would not be a war time scenario, or that the opposition wouldn't form into an army? Or that the armed opposition wouldn't have come from home? And the point was that you kept (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) Wasn't it a massive insurrection against a tyranny? Didn't the newly started country raise a rather large army to ward off the Brits? Wasn't it, then, really, an army against an army? Whether you Yanks partook in gurrilla warfare in the woods (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Frank Filz

(...) True, but it didn't start that way. And if the farmers in 1775 had quietly rolled over and turned in their guns, the army of 1776 would not have been able to be raised. Here's a pretty good short account of the day: (URL) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Frank Filz

(...) You know, I just don't think many people really think about the implications of 1775 (which is actually far more relevant to this debate than 1776, by 1776 the whole thing was well under way). How many people have thought about the (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Democratic? (was: Sticking my gun ...) —Ross Crawford

(...) However the party system stuffs all that up by forcing members to vote "along party lines" instead of how their constituents want them to vote (except in conscience votes, which don't happen often in parliament). Note that I'm referring to (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Richard Marchetti

(...) This is not a small thing. See these newsbits: An open invitation to election fraud (URL) Not only is the country's leading touch-screen voting system so badly designed that votes can be easily changed, but its manufacturer is run by a (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti wrote: <snip all good links that I'll spend time readig...> (...) You'd think that if the 'equalizer' is the 'final check and balancer of the system', then the system would have that mandated somewhere, (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —Richard Marchetti

From Thomas Jefferson to William Smith Paris, November 13, 1787 Dear Sir, -- I am now to acknowledge the receipt of your favors of October the 4th, 8th, & 26th. In the last you apologise for your letters of introduction to Americans coming here. It (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —David Koudys

(...) <snip to the part which I believe, is the relavent part to this discussion> (...) <snip> TJ was a thoughtful and thorougly well versed man. For 1786. First, it's a letter, not a law, nor part of the constitution. If this 'preserving democracy (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —Richard Marchetti

(...) Apples and oranges, Kooties. Xtian authorities have nothing to do with civil laws. My higher authority was variously a founder of my country, one of its primary legal authors, and an incredibly politically influential person besides. (...) (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —David Koudys

(...) Not according to your current president, or some ex-judge stating that your judicial system is based on the 10 commandments--these political people are appealing to God and the Bible. I'd say it's a difference b/w Macintosh and Golden (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —Richard Marchetti

Asked and answered ad nauseum. You want justification? I don't need any more than the law of the land on my side as far as I am concerned. You claim the law doesn't say what I claim it does, but my actions and those of thousands like me and unlike (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti wrote: It's absolutely amazing how you keep missing the point. Let's just snip everything and go on a tirade that has nothing to do with the issue at hand, nor deal with any point that was raised. In the (...) (21 years ago, 24-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —Larry Pieniazek

(...) You need to do a cost benefit analysis here. Even one homicide or accidental death is undeniably tragic, but death, in the long run, is not preventable. Everyone dies of something some time. Weigh those 11,000 or 25.000 (tragic) yearly deaths (...) (21 years ago, 24-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —David Koudys

(...) Nicely stated Larry. There was a discusion earlier differentiating between accidents and homicides--people dying in mining or oil platform accidents is tragic, but is not the same as willfully taking another life in an act of homicide. (...) (21 years ago, 26-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote: Curse you whomever is doing the DoS attack! double posted--sorry about that... Dave K (21 years ago, 26-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —Richard Marchetti

(...) " A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state..." The 2nd Amendment. militia = free state. Do you see it now? I could waste my time looking up references in state constitutions too, but why bother? I have this (...) (21 years ago, 24-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Are you joking? "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." What the heck do you think it says? Well allow me to translate this into modern (...) (21 years ago, 24-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Voting Fraud (was Re: Sticking my etc.) —Richard Marchetti

More on this stuff today... Diebold takes down blackboxvoting.org (URL) This appears to be a public relations gaffe of staggering proportions on Diebold's part. It's not like bunging the terms "Diebold election fraud" into Google brings up only that (...) (21 years ago, 1-Oct-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Richard Marchetti

(...) In what way have you refuted every argument. This point you have about guns no longer serving a military use seems entirely specious. So specious that I think most people reading it are thinking to themselves, "Ugh, why bother trying to argue (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) And we're back to appealing to what's going on in *other* countries and in other times. In *America*, *today*, your gun in your house does *nothing* to preserve your freedom. Your gun in your house takes away the freedom of your fellow (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Richard Marchetti

(...) Uh, that is seriously a load of crap. The U.S. is practically a warzone depending on where you live and the color of your skin. I have mentiond here before that I know of several instances of police abuse amongst people I know -- immediate (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) And your gun in your house helped how? You bring up non-sequiters. Police corruption isn't fixed by having a gun in your house, it's fixed by 'the people' getting active--voting, educating, and fixing the system. And none of that requires a (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Richard Marchetti

(...) What exactly are you looking for here? Anecdotal evidence that a gun and self-reliance are political necessaries? If you don't believe that then nothing I say will change your mind. I guess I could tell you a story, but then you'd just tell me (...) (21 years ago, 22-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti wrote: <snip> (...) Well if ya wanna talk traffic, then that's a different kettle of fish. I was once driving to Toronto every weekend from work. On a good day it would be a 30 minute drive. On a bad (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) I belive the actuall number you wanted was 11,071. The other 16,586 are suicides. So you are slightly more likely to commit suicide with a gun than get shot by one. Regardless suicides only affect those that pull the trigger much like the (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) I deny the validity of that point--an armed citizenry was valid for preserving freedom in the 18th century against a king who wanted to take that freedom away, but for those of us living in a long running democracy, now in the 21st century, (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) And yet you still have not addressed the post linked above. Throughout history there has never been a democracy where the citizenry was unarmed. Even in Canada, Britian, and Austrailia you still have armed citizenries. Nixion left office, my (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mike Petrucelli wrote: <snip> (...) I've been addressing it from the beginning--An armed citizenry is not needed I've talked with my local MPP, I've spoken with other politicians at various levels of political power (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) The opinions of a handful of politicians are irrelavent (as if they would be honest about it anyway.) You (and your politicians) can believe whatever hippy notions you want about the power of the people, but the real power of the people comes (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) And we're right back to the beginning. I went to university, I minored in poli-sci and, occasionally, I went to class...(1) I had to read your constitution. I studied your laws. I looked at the democratic process. Not once did it say in *any* (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Well, that's because I try to vote for people I won't have to shoot! Of course, having a peaceful alternative to shooting is always an advantage (if we can recall Davis, why not Bush! is my battlecry). :-) (...) Wrong - though perhaps you a (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler

(...) If I'm reading your statistics right, then I think the actual figure is 0.004 percent. I selected only homicide-related firearm deaths, yielding a total of 10,801, which represents 0.0039 percent. If my calculation is wrong, someone please (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Well using the stats from here: (URL) 11,071 divided by 275,264,999 equals 4.0219425E-5 or 0.000040219425 (...) 1,100 divided by 275,264,999 equals 3.9961492E-6 or 0.0000039961492 And for the record, I trust that 0.000004 percent of the (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler

(...) Okay, but help out a poor English major. I thought that 0.00004 is 0.004%, rather than .00004 percent, just as 0.86 is 86%. Am I wrong? I admit that it's entirely possible! Dave! (semi-math-illiterate, to my shame) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Oh! (...) No that was my mistake. Narf. :-) (...) -Mike Petrucelli (semi-spilling-illiterate, not really ashamed of it though.) P.S. 'Spelling' spelled 'spilling' is from a letter read in my 8th grade English class from the early 1800s written (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler

(...) A coworker once penned a letter of explanation to a client whose account had suffered an error in processing. My coworker wrote thus: "I apologize for any incontinence this may have caused you." Dave! (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) LOL. Nice. -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Maggie Cambron

(...) Dave! I think you meant to say you were semi-innumerate! Or heck, that would be the same as saying you were semi-numerate, wouldn't it? Not that I am convinced either is actually so. Maggie C. (who has been exposed to some real innumerates in (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler

(...) For a while I was semi-innumerable. I was absolutely beside myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, FTX)