 | | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) I have a huge problem with the characterisation of my cogent and lucid statements (:-))as inane, or gibberish. Perhaps to someone who'd rather not honor property rights and doesn't understand why property rights matter, they're gibberish. But (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
Man, Larry, I go away for a few days, and this explodes on my e-mail. :) Oh, and I agree with Larry 100%, even if I am a Republican (Some moral differences with the Libertarians, but nothing us "right-wingers" can't work out!). By the way, not all (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) OK, you state "people do not have a RIGHT to free goods." I am simplying stating that some people, through no fault of their own, do not have the ability to pay for those goods but, in the name of humanity, should "have a RIGHT to free goods". (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) I think that in a perfect liberatopia, all three of these people would have no problem getting the care they need, through charity. Person A may still be helped by some kind of unemployment coverage. Person B's family should also invest in a (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
Your little moral problems are a sucker's trap, because you haven't stated enough assumptions and preconditions, so whatever I say will be twisted around. But hey, look up sucker in the dictionary... see that picture? that's me. (...) Why? No one (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) So you are saying that these people have the right to the care that they need. Isn't charity the giving of free goods? Are you saying that these people have a right to free goods? (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) Oh, come on!! You CANNOT have a "perfect" society with more than a small number of people!! It is imposible! No matter what, there will be some that take advantage of it. Why do you think Communism failed? Any type of society that relies on (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) His savings are gone so soon? What did A do for 35 years? I have only been actively saving for a short while now and I could last a few months without my job, minimum. Inside of a year I'll be able to last a lot longer. Why would A have so (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) No, I think he's saying that, in a perfect libertopia, other people who help these people of their own free will. That does not imply that ABC have rights to those goods. (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) Ignoring the minimum wage issue, who cares if the only jobs available are minimum wage? I've worked for varying amounts in my life. If you work for 35 years making $30k per year (sorry, that should probably be $40-50k/year if we're talking a (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) No. (...) Yes and no. (...) No. There is no right to charity. A charity may feel a moral obligation to help, but that moral obligation is something between them and their benefactors. A charity will set conditions under which it provides goods (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) This point is valid. There is no perfect society and Libertarianism does not claim to be able to achieve one. It merely claims to be able to make things better. (...) Answer this question yourself, please. I know why it failed. I suspect you (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) If he gets hit by a truck (this is what the original post was about), he'd be refused medical attention because he has no benefits and can't afford it on his own. Through no fault of his own, society and the government have just condemned him (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) I think the problem here is that you are looking at the libertarian perspective piecemeal. As I understand it from what Larry has said is that since everything is connected, a truly (or at least much more than the one we have now) free market (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) It should also be said that charity doesn't automatically mean "free" goods. Habitat for Humanity is very definitely a charity, but they don't give away houses. They ask their benneficiaries to help build the house and in general to show (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) Um....He does. By your own admission previously, you do allow him to extort money out of you for his pet projects. ('He' refers to Ed, the government, and communists in general.) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) He didn't say a right; he said they would _probably_ receive charity. (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) I hear ya brother Larry. (...) No. Never. But, they should have a RIGHT to earn goods. (...) Others have hashed this one out pretty well, but basically, f@*k him. 35 years is a long time to not sock something away for the future. One of my (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) Lost a high-paying job and had to take a much lower paying job, yes. Shit happens. I made the best of the situation and moved on. Everyone else can too. (...) Saying "he lost his job and the only jobs available were minimum wage jobs so he (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
Wow, Mike Stanley and I agree on something! That is amazing! (J/K Mike. You made some great points!) I happen to work two jobs to pay off my student loans. Scott Sanburn (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
Well, we really have a quite a little mutual admiration society going here, don't we. All this macho, I've-got- 10-jobs back-slapping is touching, but let me offer a little unsolicited advice: Don't get sick, especially with a long-term, chronic (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) Somebody just watched "The Trouble with Tribbles"! --Todd (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) Thanks for the advice...I'll try not to. (...) One of my roommates in college grew up in a Utah sheep-farming family. He tells a quaint little annecdote like yours. His grandfather got old (it happens to all of us) and stopped working on the (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Todd Lehman writes: [...] (...) OUCH! You are *too* much. John C (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: [...] (...) Agreed. Unfortunately, with progressively debilitating diseases, the brain is often the first thing to go, and can be gone before you know what's happened or have a chance to do (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
Frank Filz wrote in message <377A8667.334E@minds...ng.com>... (...) need. (...) No, he did not say that. Its funny how people who like to take other people's property also like to take other people's words and misuse them. (...) Frank is catching on (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
John Cromer wrote in message ... (...) Thanks for pointing this out. You are right, our general voting public (clear-headed Americans) would rather vote for assholes that lie and say they will make things better than for people who could actually (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) his (...) I think that you're ignoring (as I understand it) a basic tenate of Libertarianism. Where does the fault lie? If this person has no savings, is it his own fault, or circumstances beyond his control? More to the immediate, who's fault (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
James Brown <galliard@shades-of-night.com> wrote: Not really responding to what James wrote, although I think it made sense. Just jumping in again. Brought up Larry's (and what I assume are the LP's) opinions on the government health care thing (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
Mike Stanley wrote in message ... (...) I hate to bring up the old religion thing, but it is relevant. One of the greatest difficulties that the average westerner has in accepting the Libertarian idea that people are basically good, is that one of (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
John DiRienzo wrote in message ... (...) Are you commenting on my words or Ed's here? (...) My "yes and no" was that in one sense, charity is the giving of goods without expecting something in return (shorthand "free goods"), but it is also a "no" (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) I agree. I'd also point out that the person who was most adamant about thinking it is "human nature" to be selfish and not give, no matter how much you do or do not have taken from you by the government was the person who somewhat proudly (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) No kidding? Man, you're weird. (...) And? Nothing wroing with ad hominem attacks, if you can support them properly with your arguments. If they can't, it's just more ammunition to use against them. Win/win situation, really.. Jasper (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) That, I suppose, is the problem with the argument that those who deserve will get medical care through charity. You have too much faith in humanity. Jasper (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) No, you have too little. I give more by proportion because I think about what it means a bit more. Change society to encourage the behaviours you want and you won't be relying on those like me who have indomitable will and faith in goodness, (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
|
|
(...) I take it you mean no taxes at all anymore, so your income would rise? More like profits would go up for business, IMHO, but that aside. (...) For one thing, abolishing all taxes and what gets paid by it wouldn't triple my income, it would (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
