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(...) It would seem to me that you don't think it particularly important is an illustration of the problem. (...) And long term detriments may not be visible to all the Libertarian Party members. I did give a specific example (Libertarians allowing (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Might have missed the conclusion of that thread if it was in a different thread but haven't seen a demonstration of how this is actually detrimental (to anyone other than the business owner foolish enough to do it) yet. (...) (URL) queen of (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Four messages back from the one I'm typing now. You haven't seen a demonstration of how this is detrimental?!? Did you miss the reasons for the civil rights movement? Ensuing riots in reaction to racism? I pointed out earlier that you get that (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Oh, me too. I just don't see it as following from allowing (not requiring) businesses (with no barriers to entry) to choose who to serve. Jim Crow laws REQUIRED businesses to discriminate. ++Lar (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) *Some* did. Note the first one listed here: (URL) I'm sure you know that businesses that *wanted* to discriminate were behind those laws - typifying all businesses in these states as innocent victims isn't exactly accurate. My point was that (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) On the topic of disenfranchisement... I feel pretty disenfranchised. Bush can take his 600 bucks and stick it. (...) "No person or corporation shall require any white female nurse to nurse in wards or rooms in hospitals, either public or (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) But it's not simply of matter of whether or not a restaurant will choose to serve "coloreds:" Businesses will be able to choose whether or not to hire people on basis of any bigoted notion they can think of. Further, because it can be quite (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) To which case are you alluding? Dave! (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) A random thought just jumped into my head... Where would the civil rights movement be had the segregationist states NOT used the National Guard to attempt to quell the demonstations? Recently (actually on my way to the April Baylug meeting), I (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian SPAM (Propaganda)
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(...) Ruby Ridge. (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This is ploughed ground, but I'll revisit it. First, I think there would be a good amount of support for schools for the underpriviledged. In fact, in a free market, companies ought to want to support schools for all. Why? The more educated (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Thanks! It was the neutral, non-partisan summation that confused me. 8^) Dave! (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That's not a bad assessment, but I think it applies more at the national level than at the level of any sub-national business or industry. Ploughed ground, to be sure, but to date the Libertopian argument hasn't been convincingly put forth. (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The world is changing, regardless, though. Rather arrogant of them, eh, not to care what conclusions we come to here? Peace and freedom, in general, are winning. ++Lar (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) "Them" who? The world at large? I'm not sure what you're referring to. Dave! (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian Propaganda (was incorrectly referred to as SPAM)
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(...) Yes. The world at large not taking LUGNETters opinions into account! The very idea. :-) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well no wonder you feel disenfranchised - the American people rejected Dubya both on a majority and plurality base, and he's still the president. :-( But on a greater level, you feel disenfranchised because the political philosophy you support (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian Propaganda (was incorrectly referred to as SPAM)
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(...) Hey, you're making fun of my pseudo-seriousness! Now *I'm* disenfranchised! Dave! (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<snip> (...) Nitpicking here - that's not true. The public school system and the requirement to attend it were formed in the late 19th century. The general public wanted kids out of the cheap working force, because they were depressing wages for (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This is one of my problems with the Libertarian Party. All that sounded good on paper. I like it...in theory. Unfortunately, it's doubtful that it will happen in reality. Businesses are all too often focused on the *now*, the next quarter, (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That's not exactly true. It may not be mustering votes, but like I said, it doesn't have to win elections, per se. Peace and freedom ARE winning. So I can feel disenfranchised for my own reasons. (...) Preventing racism and requiring it are (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Fascinating! Do you have a cite for that? Should be interesting reading. ++Lar (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This isn't a cite, but I'd heard the same thing and was reluctant to voice it, since I couldn't document it. And what did I say about fascinating?! Dave! (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Here's info for England: (URL) Education Act for England (one for Scotland followed soon after) established a national system of primary schools for children up to age 12; in 1880 attendance at primary school was made mandatory." I can't find (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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But companies would want well-educated employees no matter WHERE they came from, and would most likely contribute on both the local AND national level. For a simple, real world example, look at Silicon Valley as a whole - finding qualified (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Cool, found it! It's good to be the king! From: (URL) England and America, the evidence shows that majority literacy was achieved under the largely market-based systems of the early 19th century, and that the spread of completely tax-funded (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Matthew Gerber REGALLY PROCLAIMS: (...) YOU ARE the king of Cites. What a great cite. It seems to be saying that mandatory schooling didn't work. That seems to be somewhat anti-dogmatic (if you accept NEA dogma anyway). (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I pointed out the real difference between your two examples - you consistently refuse to address it. (...) The scenario in regards to Jim Crow is the state government gave you an excuse to allow the segregated busing you wanted (you not being (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I don't refute the King's cite, but I'd be interested to know precisely what "evidence shows that majority literacy was achieved under the largely market-based systems of the early 19th century," and what the "majority" represented. If it was (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, I am not a big fan of them either, but I was referring to the National Education Association, my apologies, I figured it would be clear from context... So don't burn the wrong wrongheaded group by mistake! (or is that miss-stake?) (...) (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) White as snow, despite my efforts to gain a tan (curse my Irish/German/ Ukrainian blood!) but I'm only barely middle class--could I still get in? Dave! (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ummmm? Not sure where to go here. Let's do this: (URL) can't copy the text out of the PDF file and put it here, so you'll have to go read it yourselves. Here's the gist: In 1813, Connecticut passed law to get businesses to educate their child (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian Suntan
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(...) Limit that to Ukrainian. I can get a tan. Irish/German/Dutch. Of course, this is all relative, since my wife and son can sit out in the sun all day and never burn. Bruce (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Define Middle Class ;-) MC varies widely depending on the COL in your area. In the vast majority of the US, I'd be considered MC from my salary. Here in Sillycon Valley, I'm far from it - I couldn't even begin to afford a house in any way. (...) -- (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, I can't do everything for you, but you might want to check out the book review that the cite points to: (URL) the book that review is about: "Market Education: The Unknown History", Coulson, Andrew J. (1999) ...and possibly the books (...) (23 years ago, 15-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think you're numbers on layoffs are a bit off... 10s of thousands of workers daily is quite a few. In Libertopia, there would certainly be no regulation of schools. Of course schools would vary all over the map as to how good an education (...) (23 years ago, 16-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Sorry, should have said "announcing the laying off of tens of thousands of workers daily"...and I don't mean in total! Look at this from today's TechTV news: (URL) said it will take a $830 million restructuring charge, which is associated with (...) (23 years ago, 16-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | A piece of U.S. history (was: Re: Libertarian SPAM (Propaganda))
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Whew! What a long post. I've been typing for almost an hour. So careful, great ramble ahead, and the footnotes are almost as long as the post itself. ;-) (...) Matt already found some stuff for you and all, I just wanted to say that I didn't really (...) (23 years ago, 16-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Uh, what *did* you say about fascinating? -Shiri (23 years ago, 16-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Here: (URL) C. (23 years ago, 16-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: A piece of U.S. history (was: Re: Libertarian SPAM (Propaganda))
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Shiri Dori writes: <One of the best posts I've ever seen, especially in .debate...read it, seriously!> Shiri, 1) I want to give you a high-five, but can't figure out how to do it through the computer. 2) Give me the name (...) (23 years ago, 16-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: A piece of U.S. history (was: Re: Libertarian SPAM (Propaganda))
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<grinning and blushing at the same time> (...) Yeah, that's a tough one. ;-) (...) Hehe. It's Newton North High-School (NNHS), a public school. Your only problem would be the rent/house price in the town, probably. Sky-rocketing. Scary. -Shiri (23 years ago, 16-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian Suntan
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(...) I burn fairly readily, but that's not what annoys me. What annoys me is that, after burning to Crayola red one day, the next day I'm back to killer-whale-belly-white, with no transition hue. Always been that way. Dave! (23 years ago, 16-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So where would that outlook stand on this story: (URL) (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd writes: <snip> I think you raise some good points but I'm not sure how to proceed since we seem a ways a part. As with Shiri's post about working conditions, I am not going to claim that things are not (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian SPAM (Propaganda)
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** bump ** (23 years ago, 19-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) But I am sure that there would be many who would be willing to pay a premium to send their kids to a "whites only" school or use other whites only services. With your text above, we return to the LP's dilemma. The LP is made up of a membership (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Please provide a cite where I said this. I don't claim EVERY problem can be solved better, (For example the problem of your obdurateness is no doubt insoluble under any system) just that the aggregate of all problems would be solved better, on (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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You ought to wait 2-3 days, at least, before bumping... (...) discriminate at all. Not enough facts in the story to judge what is going on in this particular case. Not an important enough case, really, to justify my trying to research it further to (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yet again, you have snipped my points rather than respond to them. (...) It is my perception. I may set aside time to find a quote later. (...) Youch, another insult! (...) Is this a mantra thing?? (...) Perhaps you should read this (again): (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) At least one person was found guilty. Fact enough. Is your line not that the proprietor should be free allow skin colour to decide the level of service s/he provides? That s/he should be allowed to humiliate a fellow citizen purely because of (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yes, the racism was at least party government sponsored. But I think it is a mistake to blame some government bogeyman rather than admitting that it was a reflection of the electorate. And yes, there was pressure put on businesses and (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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