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(...) Hah! Classic 80's Cold War paranoia, with Patrick Swayze to boot! The sad thing is that paranoia helps sell weapons. I have no doubt that our country makes enemies when none are there just to validate military spending. I looked back at one (...) (23 years ago, 11-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Neither, because that's not what the post said. At least not any that I saw, anyway. Feel free to provide the link back to the post to correct me. To reopen. It is my firm belief that a space based weapons platform *can* stop long and even (...) (23 years ago, 11-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: The bottom line of your statement is being in favor of a space based missle defense system for whatever reasons you argued. Those weren't of any particular interest to me since I'm obviously on a (...) (23 years ago, 11-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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Addendum: (...) <snipped> Sorry, I forgot to do that on the post just before this. Dan (23 years ago, 11-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Well said on all points! james (23 years ago, 11-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Yes, there always will be a bogeyman - 'cause we will make one up if he can't be found. Military-Industrial complex. Or is that a bogeyman....? :-) (...) George the Elder had no problem with tyrants so long as he felt he could do business with (...) (23 years ago, 11-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) The Iran-Iraq War was started by Saddam because of the bad blood between him and Ayatollah, in addition to sheer greed for oil and land. Doesn't change the fact that we backed him, though. Doesn't change the fact that we helped perpetuate the (...) (23 years ago, 11-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) <some snippage of contents has occurred> (...) It is not clear to *me* that I believe America will always have any (significant) enemy. I rather think that as countries become more free, more of the world will become less belligerent. Many (...) (23 years ago, 11-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Didn't say otherwise, but it seems you are trying to slide the primary blame onto America instead of where it firmly belongs. Believe me, I'm not a big Bush backer. (...) Are you saying that "real" arabs wanted Saddam in control of Kuwait? (...) (23 years ago, 11-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Hmmm, I wouldn't say that it firmly belongs on Saddam, I think the U.S. took the role of the trouble-maker kid on the playground saying "Ooooh, he's talkin' 'bout yo mama." There's a lot of underhanded U.S. stuff that went on, such as the bugs (...) (23 years ago, 12-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) A few years ago I read in a less-than-scrupulous...researched article that each launching of the space shuttle depletes between 8% and 10% of the ozone layer. Now, I'm not a mathematician, but we've had considerably more than 10 or 12 (...) (23 years ago, 12-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) What is this "belligerent" stuff? Are you to decide which country is "belligerent"? Belligerent to whom? To us? What, we aren't belligerent? Are they more belligerent? Don't you find this attitude the least bit arrogant? (...) I believe we (...) (23 years ago, 12-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Daniel, I think you need to do a bit more research before you state the above. The upper atmosphere "generally undisturbed"? "Occasional meteor"? Think AGAIN. (...) Combustion of a liquid-fueled rocket (solid fueled are rarely used "that (...) (23 years ago, 12-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) You're missing the point, Daniel. Why in must "a space based manufacturing infrastructure" be a "business of warfare"? I think the fact that you seem to equate them speaks more about YOU than about Larry or anyone else. I think you're a more (...) (23 years ago, 12-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Seems like you already did the research, so please enlighten us. As I said, we should approach the matter with caution. Yes, we should research the matter so we don't end up doing more damage to our atmosphere. You got a problem with that? Dan (23 years ago, 12-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) I think you're missing the point, Tom. Why should the beginnings of a "space based manufacturing infrastructure" be based on military applications? My whole point is that, all too often in this country, we use "enemies" to justify alarming (...) (23 years ago, 12-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Because it will get things done faster, because no one (or consortium of) company is willing to pony up the money to do so at this time? (...) Oh, so we shouldn't allow anything to be done if SOME of the people involved are motivated by money (...) (23 years ago, 12-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Saddam sees confusion in Iran and makes a grab for the oil fields (and not the first time they've fought about that). Unless you subscribe to orbiting-mind-control lasers (fnord!) that's pretty much right as Saddam's feet. You're not really (...) (23 years ago, 12-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Dang! It's gone! Where's the 200 sun screen? Bruce (23 years ago, 12-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) What's the big rush? As I said, look what happened in the last century because people rushed into so many things without considering the long term consequences. It is entirely possible that we may end up creating another problem for the next (...) (23 years ago, 12-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) They guy's a greedy thug and a butcher, no problem with that. Invading Kuwait was his fault, no problem with that. But we still supported the bastard throughout the 80's, right? The Kuwaitis still aggravated the issue and America rejected (...) (23 years ago, 12-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Circumspection was urged in this idealised "then" you're talking about too--especially as regards air travel, motor vehicles, and even medicine. And no mistake, you're absolutely right, we made a lot of problems (although I'd argue the balance (...) (23 years ago, 12-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) And why do you choose to twist what *I* say? You misquoted and distorted me, without a cite, then had the audacity to say you were "protecting my privacy" by not citing me. That's rich. I use the word belligerent to describe a participant in a (...) (23 years ago, 12-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Why did the US support Saddam? Why, because he was better than that bloodthirsty, nasty Shi'i Khomeini, that's why! (If you can't detect sarcasm there, you need your brain checked.) We figured that since Saddam was "secular" and willing to (...) (23 years ago, 12-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Sure, but it's 8-10% of the current (or remaining) ozone. So the first one stripped away 10% of the original amount, the next one 9%, the next one 8.1%, etc. So we'll always have some left. Or maybe the Ozone Flies just release more. Who (...) (23 years ago, 12-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Oh, wait, it's only 8-10% of the ozone it *passes through*, right? ;) I mean, good Lord, only if we're powering it with sulfur! (...) The solution, of course, is to simply drive our cars around in the stratosphere. (A reference, however (...) (23 years ago, 12-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) I don't need to twist things, I even showed you your own words exactly as you wrote them. (...) That's a distortion and misquote right there! I said I did cite your example indirectly but that I "respected your anonymity" by leaving your name (...) (23 years ago, 13-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Hah! My fault, I'm used to the Arabic way of calling it "Saudia" instead of "Saudi Arabia." (...) Good for you! We need more!!! Dan (23 years ago, 13-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) And then misinterpreted them. (...) Sorry. You are correct. There is a *tiny* bit of difference between protecting privacy and respecting anonymity. Not enough that you can slip a piece of paper beween them, but a tiny bit. However, it's still (...) (23 years ago, 13-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) I call it as I see it. We don't see things the same way. That much we can agree on. (...) A tactic? What is this discussion to you, a game? (...) Distortion or logical assumption? Why else would AMERICA put a defense system up there unless it (...) (23 years ago, 13-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) I think his point is not that we would _never_ protect American soil with a space based defense, but that we wouldn't be protecting the homeland from Iraq-launched Scuds. There are numerous reasons to build such a defense including: protecting (...) (23 years ago, 13-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) I understand that and I don't believe, or inferred, that Larry ever meant protecting America exclusively. But he did use the example of Iraqi "Scuds" as not a "created or fictitious need" for this defense system. I agree it may have been a (...) (23 years ago, 13-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) I asked a vailid one here: (URL)(although it was posed in his own inimitably (...) Ah. That would be because I questioned YOU... and you never like that. (...) That is not very libertarian? I thought the libertarian philosophy was "me! me! (...) (23 years ago, 14-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) It is good to see you agreeing with the libertarians on some things. (...) If we were preventing missiles from impacting, regardless of the nation that was being helped, we would be helping the people -- they are mostly good guys. Chris (23 years ago, 14-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Yes, but I do NOT agree with being quoted out of context. (...) Perhaps the bad guys can pay to protect their people against the impacting missiles of the US & their friends? Scott A (23 years ago, 14-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) single question asked of me... I am not going to reopen that particular thread except to say that I am satisfied, based on my life long intake of news, opinion, propaganda and falsehood, rather than based on any particular site, that my (...) (23 years ago, 14-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) :-O (...) But you could not justify it any way! (...) I did not sentance them Larry - you did. (...) This is all out of context. You were asked a question. You came up with possible answers. One of which contradicts your libertarian viewpoint. (...) (23 years ago, 14-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) A "correct" opinion based on lies, falsehoods, generalization, and sheepish acceptance of the Zionist media model. Not a learned, open minded or fact based opinion gleaned from comparative analysis. Thus, in a world ethics perspective, (...) (23 years ago, 14-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) So anytime I quote you, I must quote every utterance to ever come from your lips? Get real. (...) guys. (...) I would be in favor that arrangement under certain circumstances. It does seem a bit too close to profiteering on death for normal (...) (23 years ago, 14-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Our society tends to be quite liberal with the use of percentage figures to back up a supposed presupposition or argument. Did anyone see that Nova episode about meteors? "We don't know how many [large] meteors there are in the solar system, (...) (23 years ago, 14-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) How wrong you are: "Israel has gotten, and continues to get, a raw deal in the world media, I have no idea why." (URL) A (...) (23 years ago, 14-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Did I say that - No. Do I want that - No. (...) I am very real. Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 14-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Percents, Per Se
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(...) That's fabulous! I read an article back in '92 that proclaimed we'd already discovered 90% of the world's oil. Dave! (23 years ago, 14-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) Dan (23 years ago, 14-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) I was being rather sarcastic. Nobody is really wrong - we all have our opinions. Scott A (23 years ago, 14-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Percents, Per Se
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(...) Grin. When in fact we had already discovered 100% of it! At least 100% of that which had been discovered at that time. :-) Aren't the "proven reserves" larger now than they were then? Not that I know what that means, actually, it's just a (...) (23 years ago, 14-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) So it's OK for you to quote out of context, then? (...) out of context, I would have chosen this one... (...) Since you never effectively answered it. (although you did post, what, 4 responses to it?... Why so many? Couldn't compose your (...) (23 years ago, 14-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why the founding fathers limited government scope (was Re: Rolling Blackouts
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(...) No, and that is not what I did. (...) I think I did. I _still_ think you are wrong. I do not feel that Israel "administers justice fairly" or respects the "rule of law". Eric Olsen agreed with me on this: (URL) chose to muddy the waters with (...) (23 years ago, 15-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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