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(...) Well, I'm an athiest, so I just internally translate anything to do with God into a similar sentence something like "my belief". So god-given rights would become something like "the rights I believe in" (roughly speaking). I think athiests (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) How well do humans understand morality? I doubt animals would have the same idea of morality as humans, heck even different humans have different ideas... (...) Type "pit bull attack" into your favourite search engine. Do these animals know (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Before someone points out my error, I'll just correct myself here. It can be argued, and come to think of it, I think *should* be argued that self-consciousness *is* the prerequisite (sp?) of which I was speaking-- I merely was assuming a (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I whole-heartedly agree. However, in order to argue that animals do *NOT* have it and that humans *DO*, something must be different. But I don't argue that. Accepting the premise that animals *DON'T*, I hold that at some *point*, morality (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) You're creating a false dichotomy between a la "it must happen at specific point X, or else it cannot happen at all." This is simply untrue. I would assert that, far from occuring at a single, threshhold point, morality is a system of values (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) The question is, what constitutes proof of morality? Prove to me that *you* have a concept of morality. Perhaps morality itself is instinctive, even? Once you can draw the hard line between instinct and intelligence you've made a tremendous (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) <snipped some stuff here and there> (...) Same could be asked about women with motherhood (motherly instincts). How much is learned, how much is hard wired? Most people disagree but I really believe that people are hard wired with so many more (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Why? He's done it before. Why enable him dodging a simple yes no question by urging him to indulge himself rather than urging a straight answer? Besides, I freely admit that I don't always have all the answers nor do I always answer every (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My reload button
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(...) LOL! I'm with you on this one Chris. -Duane (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | My reload button
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Sometimes when I'm actively reading off-topic.debate, I just leave a browser window up and periodically go back and reload the page to see if anything new has been posted. If I'm actively involved in one or more threads, the name of the reload (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I wasn't actually saying I do or don't-- I was just asking to try and probe Scott a little further. Socratic method, I guess... I'm not really exploring and/or defending my own standpoint with Scott yet-- I'm trying to figure out where he (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I for one would actually like to see you do that. Demonstrate away.... (...) Speaking of language, could you try re-stating that again? That is a very difficult sentence to read - and I wouldn't want to put words in your mouth. (...) Leave it (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Ah, excellent. But then see below. (...) (URL) for those (like me) who hate to follow links: Scott: (...) Chris: (...) Scott: (...) So, in that case, perhaps I should ask this: Were you wrong to agree? Or were to agreeing with something else? (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) First, you still haven't clarified what you were agreeing to above. Second, by saying that animals ar not moral, immoral or amoral you do not add to the discussion by not stating what you beleive. I interpret your stance as either 1)animals (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Larry, At this point I am tempted to dig up all the old posts you have not answered - where the questions were *very* direct. All those ones were you were unable to justify yourself. Unable to back you own argument. Unable to show us your (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) None. Calling an animal moral/immoral/amoral is anthropomorphic - that belongs in childrens books. (...) I can't find the post you refer to. (...) No, inferring ones own morals on others is. If an individual makes a donation to a charity they (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Good restatement. Good luck getting a straight answer though. I agree that we ought not to infer or impute human characteristics of animals unless they are demonstrably present. That's why I think of animals as amoral, because I tend to (with (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I'm not sure what infering our morals on them really means, but I do agree that we are anthropocentric in our judgement of other critters. But I'm not sure a) that this is a bad thing, or b) that it is possible to get away from. How would we (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) No no, your position on whether animals are moral/immoral OR amoral. Do you think they are moral/immoral or amoral? If your position is in fact the one above then you wouldn't be allowing yourself to even HAVE an opinion on the issue, and yet (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I think that until we have clear evidence that animals understand morality, we have to assume that they probably don't. Even if an animal does lots of nice things, I wouldn't call it moral unless it had the ability to decide to do not-nice (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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I'm responding to various layers here...not just Frank. (...) hits. (...) It seems that your observation of an animal acting on what I think could be explained through instinct and self-interest has lead you to assign morality. I'm not convinced. (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) So you really do believe that ability == right. Why even use the word right instead of ability? Ability has no confusing connotations to other members of society, after all. (...) This I won't buy. I just zipped over to dictionary.com to show (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) My wife (who was on the pill the entire time I knew her, prior to our attempt at pregnancy) suffered very slight physical discomfort from her cycle. However, when she was premenstrual, she was quite simply irrational and agressive. (Of course, (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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At this moment I am drinking Mountain Dew; Code Red. I have the ability to drink it and have chosen to do so. The right to drink it is mine, I have given this right to myself. If, this afternoon, I were to learn that the governments of the world (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) OK, they were your points - I stand corrected. BTW : the questions you posed did remind me of an American stereotype we often see here. What I mean are those who say that they have "god given" rights. I always think that, in an agnostic (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I don't see this as a case of avoiding the point. I don't see any point in Lar (or anyone) rushing to answer these questions - I don't feel they have any real answer, they're kinda rhetorical, intended to get people to think about where rights (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Is might right, or just a reality? (Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) This is a very interesting point. I think most of us would say that might is not right. However, although he may just be talking about animals, Chrisis right when he says "Might makes reality". In most of our day-to-day lives might does win (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) If you mean you avoid the point(1), and I don't - I agree. (...) This sounds almost threatening. You must be pretty thin skinned Larry. Do you keep a little black book of all of those who "no longer have standing" with you, or do you use (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) This is how I feel thus it is true to me. I think the fundemental condition of "right" already existed in nature, as nature is our inspiration for nearly everything else-- art, music, even science. Our arts often try to capture that essence (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) *Little* problems? Ho ho ho... I dunno, I wouldn't call them that little. <only half tongue in cheek here> I know this varies, but some people I know, me included, have a lot more than just a "little" problem with the period. And I dislike the (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) During pregnancy, women do experience a "condition" (my wife is dealing with it right now). She is less able to perform physically. She goes to the car most work days and takes a one hourish nap. And she makes up the time. But she just _could (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Well, the idea is (in my mind) that morality in general has some "root" to it in order to be deemed morality at all. Heck, your morality is just as misplaced when ported to me as when mine is ported to a dog. And yet we do both. Are our (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) What about dolphins which have saved people with probably no real opportunity for bonding? My feeling is that most of what makes us human is not unique to us, but is exhibited to at least some degree by other animals. It is interesting to note (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Important point to keep in mind: amoral does not equal immoral. Immorality implies that the converse--morality--exists. But can't a competing, "dog idea" of morality exist? Why must human morality be ported to a dog, when moralism is (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Good examples! Dogs are pack animals, it is true. Is that sufficient to explain these behaviours? I don't know. Saving one's meal ticket would exhibit forethought. Do dogs have such? The conventional answer is that they don't, so that's not an (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I was off by a bit: "To have a right ... is ... to have something which society ought to defend me in the possession of." And also: "When we call anything a person's right, we mean that he has a valid claim on society to protect him in the (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) OK. You asserted "animals are amoral" with nothing to back it up. Go type "dog hero" into your favourite search engine, look through the list of hits. Many acts can be explained by (the dog exhibiting) self preservation, but what causes a dog (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Being the relative moralist that I am, I'll push that one step further and say I don't believe there *are* "natural" or "fundamental" rights. It's a moral definition humans create based on an emotional response. Perhaps, however, there are (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I was exploring the idea that perhaps the only fundamental right is the right to an impartial "rights based" mediation of disputes. This does suggest why animals then don't specifically have rights since they don't have the capability to (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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