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(...) Ok. (...) I can accept this. There are several possible verification systems. I think we should use several, to make it easy for as many people as possible. Ultimately though, the onus should be on the applicant to prove his/her identity, (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) this still allows stuffing by someone at level 1 - someone you met once, and therefor know exists. He can "know" many many people, and you have no way of verifying if they do exist. This might be an acceptable risk, I don't know. (...) (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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Quoting Tim Courtney <tim@zacktron.com>: (...) This seems like it might be difficult. (...) This seems fair to me, but not seem that way to non-lugnet members. (...) I ABSOLUTELY OPPOSE this. I also oppose having to enter my credit card number in (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I'd lean towards is. I'm more inclined to trust people than not to trust people, then again, that might be my weakness. (...) Yeah, sorry. One person I know signed up twice cause he thought it had something to do with news posting. Not a (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) In a scenario where multiple mechanisms are on offer, you yourself might not ever need to use it, as you'd have several other paths available. But more importantly, until we've a consensus on what level of validation is appropriate, I'd rather (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) This could be extremely difficult for the college and high school students who are involved with LDraw. High schoolers don't pay utility bills at all (and some don't have IDs until they're 18), and a large number of college students live in (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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Quoting Larry Pieniazek <lpieniazek@mercator.com>: (...) I wasn't brainstorming. I was expressing my opinion. I was expressing it as strongly as I thought was appropriate given how strongly I felt about it. I am not only concerned with myself about (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) OK, your feelings are noted, at least by me, but I do think we haven't gotten all the possibilities developed yet. I tend to personally favor not working TOO hard to antispoof, but I'll stand by what I said, you may be inadvertantly stifling (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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Quoting Larry Pieniazek <lpieniazek@mercator.com>: (...) I didn't speak up last time because 1) someone else already had and 2) I thought maybe it would die. This seemed like a recap of ideas more than a brainstorming to me, so since it wasn't off (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) The idea of personally identifiable information is indeed a sensitive one, and I recognize that. In fact, I'm a privacy freak myself - when it comes to commercial entities. The reason I included it in the recap/call for more brainstorming is (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) the fact the LDraw.org isn't a commercial entity is completely irrelavent in this case. (...) I would actually be worried about STORING that kind of information on the server. Even for the people who didn't care. Like someone else has posted (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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"Tim Courtney" <tim@zacktron.com> skrev i meddelandet news:HE2B42.17Jp@lugnet.com... (...) the (...) Rules me out. (...) Rules me out. (...) the (...) No way. Rules me out. I think you are a bit paranoid about this, but maybe you have other (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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I agree with Jennifer on this one. It is out of the question as a validation mechanism for me. Kevin (...) am (...) needs (...) or (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I completely agree with Jennifer. As I stated before, we're not running State elections we're voting for a hobby organization. The problem about false votes has been blown way out a proportion. It may be a problem if we had 1000's of people (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Why not? ldraw.org would presumably be (by Bylaws provision) banned from selling the info, and would presumably be bound to take all reasonable care with the information. Those restrictions (which would take a lot of work to ever change, by (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) OK, would that be sufficient? Only LUGNET(tm) members can be members? Is that too exclusionary? It's certainly simple enough. If it IS too exclusionary, what scheme would you suggest for those potential members who are not LUGNET members? (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Just to get people thinking, since maybe we're stuck... try this strawman To be an ldraw.org member, you have to supply 3 things, all of which are retained in a DB for validation (but not made public) 1. your real name 2. a working email (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Lemme see... 1) Amy Hughes 2) lugnews@IXNAYONTHEAM...hughes.org 3) lugnet # 928 and 1) Nancy Drew 2) ndrew@NYETSPAMthelor...houses.com (yep, that's me) 3) gimme a week or so to create and use an FBTB account and 1) Fred Smith 2) (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) OK, so you favor requireing a drivers license or something else more stringent then? Or restricting it to just LUGNET members only? or what? And you're OK if you go to 0 votes if any two of these are discovered to be the same when probed? What (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I got friends. I therefore got lots of drivers licenses :-) (...) Obviously I'll have to show up in person at 1 Ldraw Plaza to submit some DNA :-) (...) Humor? And to demonstrate that creating multiple means of verification may defeat the (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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In lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, Larry Pieniazek writes: <snip> (...) This last suggestion sounds like having a membership packet. I like the idea of having a membership package, possibly packaged with a CD of current LDraw editors, tools, library, (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Amy, nice to see a sense of humor to let a little of this pressure off ;^) I don't think LUGNET membership by itself is too much to ask. It won't do any good though unless LUGNET runs the voting and requires your lugnet password to cast a (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Which brings up an interesting point... a single sign-in/membership system for the community at large, similar to Passport or similar. Something that provides a single solution for all organizations/sites that might need to do something (...) (22 years ago, 28-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I think the letter idea is the best one yet. I was going to post something like this last night, but you beat me to it. :P It's analogous to Lugnet's membership packet, but less intensive to administer. Even a post card with a unique text (...) (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Sorry to respond to my own post, but it would be simple to automatically generate and check the confirmation codes. Just create a hash of the person's info along with some "salt" This is easy to do with gnupg : ) Have a program generate (...) (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) my only problem, is since I know what "reasonable care" is, it's really not much. (...) I'm not sure I believe in "privacy provisions" - since it's in lawyer talk, it's usual not possible for the average user to actually know what they say - I (...) (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I thought of implementing something like that a while ago - except that it seems that it would require more cooperation between the different sites involved than is currently available to draw upon. Dan (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) How so? At least among Peeron, LUGNET and ldraw.org (in it's new reconstituted form with members) all that presumably would need to happen is for you and Todd to agree, ne? (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I'm confused. I find your conflicting statements very conflicting. I think it's time to call the question. What level of validation do you (and Jenn, for that matter, since she voiced a negative with no positive offered) think we need? What (...) (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I like this idea a lot. Who cares about the instant gratification aspect. I say that if you want the ability to vote, you have to care enough to wait a couple of weeks. -Orion (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Yes. But we really want to avoid ballot stuffing, personally identifiable information is needed. So either we have to give up on preventing ballot stuffing, or on not exchanging personally identifiable information. For the brain-storm: * (...) (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I think that the privileges would need to change as you move from site to site. Peeron and LUGNET have blanket memberships: every member at these sties pretty much has the same privileges (as far as I know, only admins and moderators have (...) (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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Quoting Larry Pieniazek <lpieniazek@mercator.com>: (...) I don't see a problem with email validation until it becomes a problem, myself. Alternatively, we could require a LUGNET membership number unless anyone disagrees with that idea, so far I've (...) (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Well, I would agree, I meant to mention I was thinking of that as a medium/long term solution. Sorry about that. (...) If you use the Passport (or really any other similar system, I just can't think of names off the top of my head) concept, (...) (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) that would work with me, if everyone accepts the risk. (...) I wouldn't want to require LDraw members to be LUGNET members. Dan (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Same here. (...) I agree here as well. Alternatively, the postcard idea could verify non-LUGNET members. Those opposed to ID as validation have generally accepted the postcard idea in its place. -Tim (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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Hi Anders - (...) This verification discussion was based on the assertion in the thread that proving a unique identity to prevent vote spoofing was important. So, the suggestions made were proportioal to the concern expressed. That said, seeing that (...) (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) That's okay. I recognized that pretty quickly. Organizations need long term visions as well as short term. Hopefully the short term solution easily transitions into the long term stable solution. Otherwise, we may be seeing this same sort of (...) (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) myself. (...) can (...) But that membership number would have to be validated with a password to know that it is any good. The numbers are easy to find. Validating the number against the password would require support from lugnet. Do you think (...) (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Well it would certainly require support from Lugnet, but I don't think it would require validation of the password - just a confirmation email to the Lugnet registered email would be good enough I think? ROSCO (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I can think of two ways... I'm sure there are probably more. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- One way is for a member at LDraw.org to declare their LUGNET member id in their LDraw member record and to validate it by declaring their LDraw id in their (...) (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) That's another possibility, yes. The LUGNET server could generate a cryptographically signed string and e-mail this to a user, who could then cut and paste the string and submit it to the ldraw.org server, which would then decode the string (...) (22 years ago, 29-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I probably ought to reveal that I expect that I could easily get both a Danish and an Italian digital signature, which it would be non-trivial to show referred to the same person. Play well, Jacob -- Jacob's LEGO trains: (URL) (22 years ago, 30-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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Quoting "Kevin L. Clague" <kevin_clague@yahoo.com>: (...) I was only suggesting that the user provide their LUGNET membership number when voting, really. But I'm not nearly as concerned with Ballot stuffing as say, Dan is. :) J (22 years ago, 30-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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Hi Todd - In lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, Todd Lehman writes: [...] (...) The systems you outlined above sound cool. It would be great if this could help with verifying people based on LUGNET member ID's. -Tim PS - are you by chance switching over to (...) (22 years ago, 30-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Maybe I'm missing something...but, wouldn't we only need to validate someone for an LDraw.org member account once? When they sign up, they provide a piece of info to verify their identity, and then they're allowed to create an account with a (...) (22 years ago, 30-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) The above set sounds OK to me. (...) I think you've found a good balance by the set above. Todd has mentioned a system for cross-checking IDs for uniqueness elsewhere in this thread, which I think is important to be able to claim an off-site (...) (22 years ago, 30-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) look at Amy's post, and what she pointed out. For making sure each member is unique, the list (that I snipped) doesn't help. But I suggest we move on anyway, and just require a unique working email address for now. We can try to think of other (...) (22 years ago, 30-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Right. I (perhaps naiively) assumed the DB cross-checking would help solve that. (...) Cool :-) I'm glad we aren't stuck. -Tim (22 years ago, 30-Apr-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) great! So what's the next step? Dan (22 years ago, 6-May-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) ...on the technical end of things, I think we should get a voting and membership system in place. Once that has been taken care of and tested, open up membership for the purpose of electing the first LSC. -Tim (22 years ago, 6-May-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Yup! Soon! Not _exactly_ the way we brainstormed about it, but effectively the same result, I think. I don't think we'll go back automatically and retroactively convert news-posting accounts, for example. I think there'll be a transition (...) (22 years ago, 8-May-03, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, lugnet.admin.general)
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