 | | Re: MPD spec
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OK I have found the source code in Jacob's site, strangelly I got there from ldraw.org following the link for the MPDbuilder. I'm still searching for the spec ! P.S. Did someone already think about adding a search feature to ldraw.org ? I would be (...) (25 years ago, 24-Feb-00, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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Rui: (...) See <URL: (URL) >. You are welcome to try to make it easier to understand. (...) I am constantly (almost) thinking about adding a search feature to ldraw.org, but I haven't had time to find an implementation I like. Play well, Jacob (...) (25 years ago, 25-Feb-00, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Sorry to only get back now. I have the following questions: - Which (inline) file in the (.mpd) file is considered the root of the model - First (would be my obvious choice) ? - Last ? - we have to find out which ? The previous question raises (...) (25 years ago, 2-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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Rui: (...) The first. (...) You can't trust that the MPD file and the first file in the MPD file has the same name, but it will generally be the case. (...) There is a Linux binary at <URL: (URL) >. (...) No. (...) If the interpreter is aware that (...) (25 years ago, 3-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec [DAT]
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(...) OK, I saw it after asking, but what about the Win/DOS X86 version. NOTE: Not every one uses ADA, i.e. has an ADA Compiler Installed. (...) The following proposition may may seem awkward, but bare with me. This is My proposition for changing (...) (25 years ago, 3-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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Rui: (...) It's "Ada", not "ADA"! Neither does everybody have MS-Windows installed (and I am one of them). I don't mind distributing binaries for DOS and MS-Windows, but somebody else has to compile them. [...] There is a very good reason that I (...) (25 years ago, 4-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec [DAT]
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(...) I understand your proposal, but it has the bad side effect of requiring a double-pass through all the files. For example, if the first line of your file is: 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 foo.dat and foo.dat is not found in the search path, the (...) (25 years ago, 6-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Generally, yes, but if you are viewing the DAT files on lugnet with a browser, the file name will be some long temporary name. -gyug (25 years ago, 6-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) OK, I stand corrected ! (...) My NOTE had no intention to be ofensive. I'm sorry if you took it ofensively, that was NOT the intention. I also dislike windows, unfortunatly, some people (like me) are forced to try to work (sometimes it's (...) (25 years ago, 8-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) I'm sorry bu this is NOT true ! Also my suggestion to the MPD format only assumes an implicit (0 FILE model.dat) at the begining of the file. so the processing is almost exactly the same as before. (...) The current (the one beeing used now) (...) (25 years ago, 8-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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Rui: (...) ^^^...^^^ s/want to have/can't avoid having/ (...) The MPD format has been designed for easy handling through NNTP and SMTP, which means that I have to accept standard mail and news headers before the actual content. I don't intent to (...) (25 years ago, 8-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Nice regular expression ! (...) There is NO problem with that, because, every mail/news reader supports the [uuencode] format and most support the [MIME] format. Maybe you just want to convert directly from a mail dump ? But that can easilly (...) (25 years ago, 8-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) I believe the answer would be Yes and Yes. Steve (25 years ago, 9-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) So are you available to help define a better/improved Multi Part Dat format, not necessarilly with MPD extension ? By using your experience with the current MPD format ? including the splitter and Builder ! What would you improve ? Do you (...) (25 years ago, 9-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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Rui: (...) I do use it for "batch processing". (...) That's while I added the "NOFILE" meta-command at some point. I think it was Jeremy who made me aware of the need for that. (...) I think you could say so. I wrote the definition and the first (...) (25 years ago, 9-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) I think part of the problem is that MPD files are currently being used differently than they were originally intended. Rui's ideas would benefit a lot of people trying to make use of MPD. But these changes would defeat current uses of the (...) (25 years ago, 10-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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Steve: (...) Yes. I think that the right format for these alternative uses is gzipped tar files. There is Open Source code available for reading this format, and there is no need to go through a specification and implementation process. Play well, (...) (25 years ago, 10-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) OK! (...) Where is that documented ? Does it have parameters ? I personally, never heard about that Meta command ! Does a regular (extended) .DAT also suport this or is just an MPD specific meta command ? I think it's the later. [...SNIP. (...) (25 years ago, 10-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Also agree ! But, lets try to make everybody happy ! ;) (...) I don't quite agree with that, because this new format does not need to be just a way to gather a few DAT files, It can be a lot more, but without forgetting that it should be kept (...) (25 years ago, 10-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec.. don't forget M-Peedy
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I have built a Win9x/NT MPD builder/splitter (URL) easier than having to deal with DOS command lines, batch files or compiling your own .EXE and links to it area available here (and have been for some time) under the CAD/Tools secction (URL) (25 years ago, 10-Mar-00, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Jacob, Do you mind if I copy (and update) the information on your MPD page to www.ldraw.org/reference/specs? Steve (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Not at all. It seems like a very sensible thing to do. I presume that the update will include the "NOFILE" meta-command (if we ever got around to agree on it). Please announce it, when the copy is ready, so I can change my web pages to point (...) (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) I don't know if we ever agreed on it; I don't remember the discussion of it at all. But I included it in the page. (...) Oyez, oyez! Please read the new Multi-Part DAT (MPD) Language Extension specification at (URL). All comments, suggestions, (...) (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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Great! One question: I think I've seen some MPD files with the extension .dat and named exactly the same as its main model sub-file. IMHO, it's a risky thing to do. It's very easy to overwrite the main file with if the mpd is named the same. (It (...) (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) One addition that might be useful for people using the spec is to explicitly state that other than the first file being the main one, there is no implicit order to the remaining files. This is implied by the existing spec, but not actually (...) (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Good point. Should probably also add the following... - There shouldn't be multiple files with the same name. - paths are allowed, so are explicit drive references. But the capability should be use with restraint, since it can easily make it (...) (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) MPD Workshop cannot handle a reference to a non-existing directory, or rather, it does not create a folder if necessary. For example: (URL) line: 0 FILE s\41342s01.dat assumes that there already exists the folder 's\' in the target directory, (...) (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Err, the entry for MPD in the glossary: (URL) here: (URL) is a bad link. Could you update the glossary to point to the new spec? Don (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Hmm. I don't remember if there was a lot of discussion about putting paths on the 0 FILE line. So I won't say for absolute sure that the program should allow them. I'd say any software that *thinks* it needs a directory, and crashes when it's (...) (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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I was wondering, didn't see it discussed in the text, is it permitted / custom to have ldraw files in a mpd file reference other mpd files? If so is the first part in the file used or is there some naming convention pointing to the correctsubpart (...) (22 years ago, 5-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) FWIW both the ldlite and l3 parsers in ldglite are OK with paths in an MPD file. Just make sure the path in the 0 FILE line matches the path on the type 1 line that pulls in the subfile. If they don't match it reports that it can't find the (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Another thing I realised the other day is that in Australia, the opposite of clockwise is generally anti-clockwise rather than counter-clockwise, so the BFC CERTIFY should really be CW or ACW, but it's a bit late to worry about it now! ROSCO (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) This is a very good question, and is even more important with the migration to a single filename suffix (.LDR). What happens when your type-1 line refers to a LDR that happens to be a multi-part dat? Cheers, - jsproat (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) I don't know how ldglite and other parsers work, but I guess they don't create files with paths and all, but rather objects somewhere in RAM, with 'filenames' just as a property. But if you call the procedure SaveToFile(Path+FileName) to save (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) I don't know about the other parsers, but as far as LDView is concerned an LDraw file is an LDraw file is an LDraw file. It makes no distinctions between ldr files, dat files, and mpd files. If it sees a 0 FILE command, it starts its MPD (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) I have ldr files with up to 4 levels of nested sub files, and LDview, L3Lab, and MLCad all appear to render them fine. ROSCO (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) I would even call it a bad thing to do. But then I have a habit of putting "FILE" meta-command in all my files, so maybe I should stop criticising and try to fix my own bad habits first. > It's very easy to overwrite the main file with if the (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Paths, explicit drive references, and the case of file names (Was: MPD spec)
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(...) I am not sure about explicit drive references. Actually, I think we should limit it to _relative_ paths. We should also decide on a preferred - or maybe even fixed - directory name delimiter. I suppose that it should be "\", even though Unix (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Done. Play well, Jacob (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) MPD files should not be named ".ldr" (or ".dat")! Jacob (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Right. Any "MPD splitter" program should include code to check that filenames and paths are valid, and either report missing paths, or create them, or ask the user before creating them, or provide options (ie, command line parameters) to (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Auggh! Hey, it's not too late -- there is no official BFC spec. Yet. :> Steve (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Good question. Different programs have more (or less) success at handling this. L3Lab seems to have no trouble with it. LDLite usually does ok, but not always (unfortunately, I don't have an example). (...) There's no special syntax, the (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Paths, explicit drive references, and the case of file names (Was: MPD spec)
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(...) I'd prefer we say that local/absolute references are allowed, but provide guidelines to show that relative paths are usually better - easier to manage, easier to share, etc. (...) Yes, yes, and I'm guessing yes. (...) I think you are correct - (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Paths, explicit drive references, and the case of file names (Was: MPD spec)
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(...) why not just say any of the following (':', '/' and '\') can be used as a delimiter, and it doesn't matter which you use - it's up to the program to translate any of those to the correct one for the OS? (...) defenitly! :) Dan (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) I think so, too. I see MPD files almost like ZIP files. I know that there are differences, like inside WinZip you can generally only view standalone files without unzipping them first. (The reason I reignited this thread was I wanted to make (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Me too. And originally, you actually had to split a MPD file before you could view the contents. I would prefer that we stick to this way of treating MPD files as if they are splitted/unpacked before their content is processed. (...) That is (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) I wasn't here for the .ldr extension discussions, so this may well have already been covered, but why not ".ldr"? It seems to me that any tool with built-in support for the .ldr extension should also support the MPD format. And the MPD format (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) I disagree with this. Or, if we keep this approach for MPD, I'll want another standard language extension for embedding "macros" in LDraw files. I tend to view (and use) FILEs in MPD files as "subroutines", and I'd prefer they were designed to (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: Paths, explicit drive references, and the case of file names (Was: MPD spec)
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(...) I tend to disagree. Given that the whole point of MPD files is to allow LDraw files to be more portable across multiple machines, I think absolute paths should be disallowed. It doesn't make sense to me to allow absolute paths in a file format (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Paths, explicit drive references, and the case of file names (Was: MPD spec)
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(...) :-( I have fixed my MPD splitter. The updated version will show up on: (URL) tonight (or early tomorrow). Play well, Jacob (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Because we ought to differentiate between files that can be processed directly by LDraw, and those which have to be filtered through another tool (a MPD splitter) before LDraw can render them. If we decide to scrap LDraw compatibility, this is (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Have you considered that that means that MPD files will no longer be able to be rendered by LDraw? (or have I overlooked something?) (...) Yes, but it is a single-level subroutine system like in C. (I complain about it in C, but that is (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) These are good points. Perhaps we should define the spec with two levels: "strict MPD" and "expanded MPD". Strict MPD would require everything necessary to render files with ldraw: - All names on FILE statements follow the DOS filenaming (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, lugnet.cad.dev) !
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| | Re: Paths, explicit drive references, and the case of file names
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(...) Okay. I have made that an option with the latest edition of my MPD splitter: (URL) Here is my list of how software can handle this, in order from least (...) Except for the option of prompting before creating a directory, I have implemented (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) No, I hadn't. I was taking the view that MPD files are not compatible with LDraw, and I was not too concerned with making them 'more compatible'. See my other recent message for a suggested way to standardize both "LDraw-ready" and "never (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: Paths, explicit drive references, and the case of file names
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(...) Wow! That was fast! :) Steve (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) [...] That looks like the right solution. Play well, Jacob (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: Paths, explicit drive references, and the case of file names
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(...) I would rather say that I had been lucky with the design of the program. I don't think I had to change much to make it work as you requested, but you can compare this and the previous version of the source code. Play well, Jacob (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Or perhaps MPD and LD2. We have discussed the time for a new, not LDraw compatible standard years ago. I don't like the idea of an "almost LDraw compatible" standard. Isn't it better to go all the way with maybe type 6, 7, 8... commands than (...) (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) Good point. I like the idea of a clearly defined new version of the file format. This would be a good point also to rename multi-part files in the second version to something relating to .LDR - perhaps .MPL could make the distinction? -Tim (22 years ago, 6-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) I can appreciate your concern. For now, let me develop a document that treats the two specs as variations. If you're unhappy with my results, we could easily rework it into two totally separate standards. BUT, IMO, a new standard that breaks (...) (22 years ago, 7-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, lugnet.cad.dev)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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I think I am going to load referenced subparts only and use the first one of recursive mpd files, ignoring the rest for now for LD4DModeler's MPD support. Roland. (...) (22 years ago, 8-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: MPD spec
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(...) I'd like to weigh in on this issue. I like using the .ldr extension for everything. I also like being able to refer to another MPD file (with the .ldr extension) from within an MPD file. I also like being able to call the the first subfile the (...) (22 years ago, 8-Aug-02, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, lugnet.cad.dev)
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