 | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —John Neal
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| | | (...) Government should protect us from ourselves??? This is an absurd statement in my mind (see my statement about avoiding personal responsibility), but I sense a fundamental disagreement here as to the purpose of government and will agree to (...) (24 years ago, 10-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) I agree :) (...) The problem here is what is "unjustified" to you may be OK to me - or vise versa. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one too. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 10-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —John Neal
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| | | | (...) Well, not what "unjustified" means to *me*, but to what society says. In the case of capital punishment, society may say that *that* is justice; therefore executions are justified in the eyes of that society. If you mean to agree to disagree (...) (24 years ago, 10-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Scott Arthur
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| | | | (...) If a given group of people reach a democratic decision after am informed, educated and objective debate - who am I to argue against they are "wrong"? I may disagree, but I can only respect their opinion. This issue aside, at times (...) (24 years ago, 10-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | (...) case (...) But that doesn't make it right, or actually just. (...) But still evil. (...) Well, if you're a member of said society, and being forced to fund their evil practices, I think you ahve every right to explain that they are wrong. (...) (24 years ago, 12-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —John Neal
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| | | | | | Okay, you are responding to opinions of two people mixed below, but I will just cut to the chase, Chris. You say killing mass murderers and repeat child molesters is evil. How would you deal with them? Simply incarcerate them so that they may enjoy (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —James Powell
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| | | | | | | (...) just (...) that (...) equipment, (...) How do you deal with the first innocent person you murder??? Does that answer your question? As I stated before, I can think of 2 cases in Canada (and several in the US) off my head that would have lead (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | (...) Well, I never really came out and said that I was pro death penalty. But if I were, I would be *damned* sure that the convicted party was indeed the perp. All I am saying is that our current system leaves a lot to be desired. What I suggested (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | (...) Yes. (...) Yes, assuming they will work, they need to be properly fed so they can perform as much work as possible, now if they chose not to work (or chose to be so uncontrollable that they can not safely be put to work), well, then they (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | (...) I'm not sure I'd give them cable OR net access. I don't support the way prisoners are treated in the US (or for that matter, the way prisons are organized and funded)... but don't confuse that with support for putting someone to death in order (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Handling of Prisoners? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) It is demonstrable that the cost of putting a prisoner to death (after weighing the costs of appeals et al) greatly exceeds the cost of imprisoning that same prisoner for life; the argument that execution saves money is flawed. It is, by the (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) just (...) I would search for a way to help them remedy the harm that they caused. If they are mentally broken, I would therapise them (I suppose, by force, even though I'm uncomfortable with that), and if they were too broken, I would (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) What if they were unrepentant? (I'm innocent!) My point was that letting criminals sit around for the rest of their lives in prison with all of their needs provided for and more is hardly justice IMO. Simple incarceration is not enough. (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) their (...) So what? I assume that most criminals in today's society are unrepentant. (...) needs (...) Well, that is clearly not what I advocated above, so I'm not sure why you're pointing this out to me. They should be employed in the (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) I was referring to criminals *in* prison-- if most assert innocence, I doubt they would be willing to work to make reparations. (...) I think we agree that criminals should *work* to make reparations. All I'm pointing out is that, *in our (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) they (...) Me too. They assert innocence in order to try to get out. They would be willing to work if they were properly incented to. You can shackle people and have them make gravel, but that's not useful. You can not shackle people and have (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —John Neal
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| | | | | | Christopher Weeks wrote: <snip> (...) Yeah, so what the hell are we arguing about? :-) (...) Yeah, I'm sure they do, Chris. But when they get out, they get amnesia or something, because many if not most go back to a life of crime. You explain it. (...) (24 years ago, 14-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | (...) it. They don't know how. Prison _could_ (but does not) teach them how to do it right. (...) pick (...) would (...) Or if they were released with the skills to make it on the outside. And that way we don't have blood on our hands. (...) be (...) (24 years ago, 14-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) This assumes that criminals are caught upon their first infraction. A criminal doesn't become "hardened" simply by spending time in the joint; a life of criminal activity, inside or outside of prison, will harden someone very effectively. (...) (24 years ago, 14-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | (...) I think that most criminals are first caught during their youth. That aside, I'm sure there are some who live long full lives of crime and never get caught. I still suspect that if someone can be hardened, they can be softened. (...) Yes. And (...) (24 years ago, 15-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | Christopher Weeks wrote: <snip> (...) If a person freely chooses a life of crime, who are you to say that they are lost? I 'spose you'd say that they are "broken", but if that is the case, then I'd venture that by your definition of broken, all (...) (24 years ago, 15-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) An optimistic notion, to be sure, but I don't know that it's consistent with reality. The process by which someone becomes hardened into a life of crime is insidious and *very* long term (or at least potentially so); I cannot imagine, nor has (...) (24 years ago, 16-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | (...) I expect that if it takes them a long time to harden, it will take at least as long to soften. And ultimately, I don't know how to do what I'm suggesting. If you can arrange stewardship over a prison and a somewhat increased budget with which (...) (24 years ago, 16-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: What about all the prisoners? —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) I'm still not comfortable with this, since it suggests "choose to conform or we'll make you choose to conform to society's ideals" in a way every bit as totalitarian as the Big Brother states of which Libertopia is the antithesis. (I know you (...) (24 years ago, 16-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —John DiRienzo
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| | | | | | "John Neal" wrote in message (...) people) (...) liberals (...) sociopaths (...) ever) (...) under the (...) huge (...) Would the Libertarians call this wussy flash? Why would you want to keep the most abused of all drug laws on the books, Mr. (...) (24 years ago, 27-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) Not sure I understand the question-- are you asking me why I would still make it a crime to drive a vehicle under the influence of drugs? Because if you are, then you are more obtuse than I thought. -John (24 years ago, 27-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —John DiRienzo
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| | | | | | "John Neal" <johnneal@uswest.net> wrote in message news:3A228CA4.D204CA...est.net... (...) make (...) you (...) Oh I know the answer John, the question was more rhetorical, so I am not really offended nor even surprised by your attack. Hopefully (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Freedoms in Libertopia? (was Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne) —John Neal
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| | | | | | (...) Well, here's my point. I am all for personal freedom, but even in Libertopia we need to draw some lines. Hey, use all the drugs you want; it's your life to ruin. As long as you do it with the understanding that there won't be any free gov (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Freedoms in Libertopia? (was Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne) —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) Are there systems that can prevent irresponsible driving that might work even better than what we have now? The US has an alarmingly high amount of DWI. Our system may not be working all that well. Other countries are even worse. I don't have (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Freedoms in Libertopia? (was Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne) —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | (...) Of course such a device does exist, though I'm not sure how accurate it is. (...) So would I. (...) With privitized roads, I don't see any problem with the owner putting any sort of restrictions, including deciding someone looks like a drunk (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —John DiRienzo
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| | | | "Scott A" <eh105jb@mx1.pair.com> wrote in message news:G3tJ8p.446@lugnet.com... (...) "wrong"? (...) at (...) Having read what I just wrote in this forum regarding education and child rearing are you still so selfless to say, "Who am I to argue (...) (24 years ago, 27-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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