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(...) There appear to be conflicting court orders in effect, as there is also a ruling in effect that Elian can apply for asylum in his own right and that the guardianship is valid. Or that's my understanding. (...) Andre Marrou. John Bergland. Ron (...) (25 years ago, 26-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) All murderous issues aside, isn't her "quivering lip" due to her Parkinson's as opposed to some affected emotionalism? (...) This seems to presume that parents in a communist state must either be decietful or under duress to wish to remain in (...) (25 years ago, 26-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) The legal rulings do get confusing, don't they? My understanding is that the ruling to hand over the child was valid and no temporary restraining order was in effect (or perhaps in effect by a sufficiently high enough court). (...) Now Larry, (...) (25 years ago, 26-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Well, when he has relatives back in Cuba who would have to face the repercussions of his defection, it might *seem* as though he doesn't want to leave Cuba. I'd say he's in a tough spot. -John <snip> (...) (25 years ago, 26-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) repercussions of his defection, it might *seem* as though he doesn't want to (...) Undoubtedly! But that's still an assumption based on preconceptions of the communist state, rather than on any evidence relevant to the case at hand. Dave! (25 years ago, 26-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Sorry, can you clear up for me what preconceptions you're referring to? There is hard documented evidence in profuse quantities that, for example, psychiatry is viewed as an arm of the ministry of the interior (that is, the secret police) and (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) **snip of a few undeniable truths about Cuba** My question remains, though: are we to assume that anyone who chooses to remain in such a country must necessarily be either deceitful (spelled properly this time, unlike my last post!), under (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) her (...) That was me, and yes, I feel the attempt was particularly ill-prepared (i.e. the actual attempt was so doomed to ultimate failure it was literally terminally stupid). Perhaps this is a reflection of my deep respect for the open (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Let me connect the dots for you. Arguably, Elian's mother would have been better served if she could have flown from Cuba to FL in a commercial airliner. Or even taken a large passenger liner, or in extremis, a 50 foot fishing trawler. But (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) properly (...) Add "deluded" to the list and I will go with yes. It's that simple. (...) It's grand standing but it's not circular, based on your statement about preconceived notions. The gist of that was that you seemed to be in denial about (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) However, was every other parent who remained in East Germany a likewise unfit parent? This again seems too sweeping a claim, generalizing everyone under one circumstantial banner. That said, the fact of your uncle’s brainwashing is dreadful. I (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Sorry--I posted before "refreshing" my browser, so I didn't see that you had already replied... Dave! (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Thanks! The circular part is that either the reader has to agree with your view, or else that reader's view doesn't count. In addition, it's also a "false dilemma," (if I recall my terminology correctly) in that it presumes to force a choice (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) It's not entirely a custody matter. In my view Elian applied for asylum merely by appearing here. The niceties of when was the formal petition filed and so forth are just legal machinations being used to deny civil rights. His mother gave her (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) to (...) While true, that's not circular. For example, if you believe in strict creationism, your view on particular steps of the evolutionary process being true or not has no bearing, inasmuch as you've not accepted a fundamental premise (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Hmm... That's interesting, and I hadn't previously considered it that way. If he'd fallen out of an overflying plane, would he (assuming his survival) likewise have applied automatically for asylum? If, while I'm vacationing in upstate New (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Well, that's a colorful, if tangential, example, and I expect it might seed debates of its own. (...) I do not assert that communist states do not routinely deny civil rights, nor do I accept the basis of such an either/or determination. As (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Sorry, I was insufficiently precise. Merely by *deliberately* appearing here. If I fall out of a plane flying over Rwanda by accident it probably isn't my intent to apply for asylum there. Now, normally I try to avoid assigning intent but I'd (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) *Now* you say that but originally you said "Undoubtedly! But that's still an assumption based on preconceptions" and that is what is leading me to believe that you weren't accepting that in fact most people under communist regimes live in (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) D'oh! Well, shoot. Good call. That was an unintentional inconsistency, and I think I stumbled between Elian's issue and the world-at-large. My error. (...) I wouldn't have characterized delusion in that way, but I see your point. "Delusion" to (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) mother (...) many (...) then, (...) Whoa, wait a minute. She snatched the child and fled because she lost the custody battle. If she had won, I very much doubt she would have left. As much as you may view it otherwise, this isn't particularly (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) escape (...) a (...) flown (...) Lost a custody battle in which court system? I'm not going to give any weight to a court system of Cuba. We already know that justice comes out there whatever way the apparatus wants it to. So, yes it is indeed (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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In a different subthread Bruce said I was ignoring a post of his. I think THIS is the one he refers to... sorry about that. OK. (...) I think this is the key point in the post that needs responding to. Let's posit a theoretical example. Suppose (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Either that or having him stay in a "democratic" police state. Kya - who has nothing really to add to this conversation other than the opinion that the US is looking more and more like a police state (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) WARNING! Don't take your kids to America, you might never see them again! This is frought with danger. Based on China's human rights record (and gross overpopulation) if a Chinese family visited the USA with a young child, would you advocate (...) (25 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Please reread the relevant part: If she had won, I very much doubt she would have fled. I just don't think she was making any statement about communism. (...) You keep projecting your opinions onto Elian's mother (I'm not faulting the opinion (...) (25 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Libertarian (...) Can't we just stick to the actual events? :-) (...) fight (...) Elian was at sea, was rescued, and brought here. Oh alright, I'm nit-picking on that one. (...) I don't think persecution was why they left. (...) The child (...) (25 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Ahhhh, I love it. Cuban commandos come parachuting down to free the Piutes, but stay to gamble a while in the Indians' Piute Palace Casino. Bruce (25 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Yeah! That's my job! 8^) Dave! (25 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Of course not. If Larry did, then he wouldn't be able to confuse you with his standard irrelevant hypotheticals. (...) Positing about an accident makes your argument irrelevant to this specific case, since Elian *didn't* wash up here (...) (25 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) What if I take the stance that to a certain degree people must want to free themselves enough to make it happen, or trying to provide them with freedom will do no good? How does that fit into this binary classification? (...) You might perhaps (...) (25 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) back, (...) I don't really think that's a matter of morality, more like time management. If you only have time to post ten messages, why bother answering banal posts? (...) that (...) Larry, do you really mean that we should abduct all kids (...) (25 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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Here is the catch to all these arguements. Even in a Libertarian state, the thing most revered and respected is personal freedoms. One major freedom is the right for a person to decide where they desire to live and persue happiness. If Juan Miguel, (...) (25 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: I'm taking this opportunity to post contrary to Larry since it only happens once in a blue moon :-) (...) fight (...) I'm with you so far... (...) Not to me. (And to others apparently.) When the (...) (25 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Too bad because I've decided to recant. (mark your calendars people, this doesn't happen that often) Rereading what I said, I think I may have gone just a teeny little bit too far and built myself a house of cards that I can't support in the (...) (25 years ago, 29-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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