Subject:
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Re: Taxes from Lego auctions?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sat, 25 Dec 1999 05:29:47 GMT
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Reply-To:
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lpieniazek@novera.&IHateSpam&com
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Viewed:
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828 times
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Whoa, whoa...
Richard Marchetti wrote:
> Who owns your house, Larry? The Bank? Is it paid off? Who owns it when you
> fail to pay the property tax? Do you own it in a state of freehold, as is
> your legal right and a significant part of your legal heritage? Is it held in
> allodial?
>
> We live like feudal serfs...and own nothing. Our property rights are as if
> they didn't exist at all. And even if they do exist, which they do BTW, who
> tries to enforce them and stand upon their fundamental rights?
>
> Yes, I think its worth owning something, or just admitting that we never did.
> How much is the price of the three martini lunch...?
This, above, has almost NOTHING to do with interest. It so happens that
I agree with some (most? almost all?) of your points(1). I'd prefer that
my money be issued by a private bank, and backed by something tangible,
instead of being backed by a promise to pay me back in the same exact
thing I present for payment. I'd prefer that I be able to buy property
outright instead of at the whim of the state, and that my real property
not be subject to confiscation if I don't pay my property taxes, and a
lot of other stuff.
But I thought we were talking about interest.
Let me back up and try again. Why exactly should a capitalist have to
take a stake in profits as his only way to put his capital to work? In
the final analysis, a loan and a stock float are rather similar in some
ways... both are ways to put capital to work. They differ in how the
risk is arbitraged.
With a loan, I give you some money and I get a fixed amount back. If you
use it wisely, you come out way ahead, because you don't share your
profits with me. If you don't, I still get my money unless you use it so
unwisely that you go insolvent, in which case I am typically ahead of
the stockholders in line to get what remains of your assets. That risk,
that you are going to screw up royally, justifies my interest payments.
Paying interest is a good deal for you because if you do well you come
out way ahead.
Contrast that with an IPO. In that gig, I gove you some money and I get
nothing in particular back. You may or may not choose to pay dividends.
You also may or may not choose to buy the stock back at some point. But
I'm betting that my share of your company, and the earning potential it
represents, and the breakup asset value, and/or what other people
perceive the company to be worth, will cover my investment and then
some. Way more risk, but essentially unlimited upside ( ICGE, which I
got shares of in the IPO because I am an SFE shareholder(2) went from a
split adjusted 6 to around 150 or so in the span of 5 months or so...)
Usury schmusery. Who cares what the bible says? I can't believe you were
using it to support your argument. Interest is legitimately set by the
market. In a free market, money costs what the market says it does.
Lenders compete for business by setting the rate they want to get.
Borrowers compete for money by setting the rate they're willing to pay.
I, as a capitalist, have the right to dispose of my capital as I see
fit, based on my choice of risk and reward ratios. Don't you DARE tell
me that I can't enter into a contract with a borrower that has fixed
payments, including interest. You have no right to restrict my ability
to enter into contracts that way.
1 - remember, I'm a libertarian, and in particular from the strict
propertarian branch, even almost an objectivist.
2 - you should go buy SFE. It's a great stock. Spins off another little
company every 3-4 months, many of which have skyrocketed. It's at 150 or
so right now, I am in at a split adjusted 21, but I have made that
original 21 back several times over in returns from the spun off
companies.
Right now the stuff it's spinning off are B2B internet companies, which
if you've been paying attention, are the hottest thing out there. Just
like 5 years ago when consulting companies were the hottest thing,
that's what it was spinning off..
Both DTPI and CTP are SFE spinoffs. CTP is on rather hard times lately
but went from a split adjusted 1.66 to over 60 before it cratered
itself. Actually, Novell is an SFE spinoff too.
--
Larry Pieniazek larryp@novera.com http://my.voyager.net/lar
- - - Web Application Integration! http://www.novera.com
fund Lugnet(tm): http://www.ebates.com/ ref: lar, 1/2 $$ to lugnet.
NOTE: Soon to be lpieniazek@tsisoft.com :-)
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Taxes from Lego auctions?
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| (...) Okay, sorry. I see that you are talking something like my language. And I wasn't using the bible to justify anything, merely pointing out the many faiths have this idea in there somewhere (relating it back to another offshoot of this thread). (...) (25 years ago, 25-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Taxes from Lego auctions?
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| (...) Well, I am not sure about the exact nature of your hypothetical, but how about the way one uses an ATM for different purposes -- your use being contigent on available money in the account. The account itself is simply paid for with a service (...) (25 years ago, 25-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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