 | | Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Richard Marchetti
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| | | California Recall: The Coup Inside a Circus (URL) edit: I can't quite dismiss this story as complete madness. There's so much going on right now in terms of information consolidation that it's hard to see the purposes of democracy winning out (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Carl Nelson
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| | | | | (...) That's pretty funny--I was snickering as soon as I hit the "rightwing (sic) forces controlling the Republican Party want TOTAL victory" part. Substitute left wing and Democrat and that statement's true too. Geez, what a revelation! I'm sure (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | (...) Yes, everybody wants total domination for their particular agenda, but the article was accurate on that account: the right-wing Republicans are doing whatever it takes to actually achieve theirs. Personally, I think their overreaching mania (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Carl Nelson
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| | | | | | (...) As are so-called "Democrats" who are as happy to obtain their way by judicial fiat that completely ignores democratic processes. For example, take controversial Proposition 187 in California: a clear expression of will by 59% of the voters (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | | (...) With the possible exception of that whole Iraq war thing, right? -- Hop-Frog (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Carl Nelson
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| | | | | | | | (...) Or Hussein's reign of terror, torture, and rape! Carl (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) None of which was listed as the reason for the pre-emptive war. But I guess Hussein's actions (and the actions of his sons) are as good a reason as any to kill 3,000+ innocent Iraqi civilians, not to mention the dead or wounded US citizens... (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Carl Nelson
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| | | | | | | | (...) IMO, the only justification needed was this: Hussein was in continuing violation of the cease-fire that ended the first Gulf War, both through continuing activities in no-fly zones and hampering efforts of enforcement of the UN resolutions (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) IIRC, the no-fly zones were established by the US and UK, so they are irrelevant to UN resolutions. For that matter, Dubya himself hampered the efforts of the UN to enforce its own resolutions when he made logically impossible demands upon (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Carl Nelson
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| | | | | | | | (...) You may be correct about the no-fly zones being established by coalition forces, but they were a condition of the cease-fire, and violation of a cease-fire is more than sufficient reason to resume hostilities. The UN wouldn't enforce anything (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | | | Clinton? Bush? Who cares? In my opinion they are figureheads only. The democrat v republican game is also a mere sideshow. Real power is media-hidden in enterprises like Enron and the IMF: 1. You go on in. 2. Your paid for politicians hand you the (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | (...) Judicial fiat is how we have Bush as president if that's the way you want to look at it, so I'm not sure what you point is when you try to use an example of a proposition that was doomed legally from the word go. What, the judiciary should (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Carl Nelson
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| | | | | | (...) Yeah, just like all those media recounts showed that Gore still lost. We all know that election laws don't matter when Democrats are on the losing side... Absolutely not. It is the job of the judiciary to evaluate the constitutionality of laws (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | (...) Perhaps I'm missing something here. Did Global Crossing deliberately overstate its outlook and earnings by billions of dollars, while defrauding its shareholders and employees, and did it also swindle California (greatly contributing to the (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Carl Nelson
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| | | | | | | | (...) Just showing some skeletons on the other side. McAuliffe was first to jump down Bush's throat for his "involvement" with Enron, but never mind his own $18 million profit off Global Crossing that looked as specious as anything Bush might have (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) Not at all. Bush, as an appointed maker-of-policy, is directly positioned to engage in heavy-duty cronyism. His intimate friendship with Lay directly paid off for Lay in the form of a key advisory position in closed-door policy meetings. The (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Carl Nelson
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| | | | | | | | (...) As is any elected governor or president, which proves nothing. I, as a male, am directly positioned to commit rape. That doesn't mean that I do it. (...) For this charge to stick it must be demonstrated that Lay's advisory position was solely (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | (...) But Bush *has* engaged in Lay-favorable cronyism and protectionism, as Bruce has already ably discussed. That (presumably) separates Bush-the-potential-cronyist from Carl-the-potential-rapist. And you haven't addressed McAuliffe in this regard (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | (...) <snip> (...) You, the rest of your country, and the rest of the world. Get the moron out of office--all this reeks to high heaven! Davis was recalled for far less. Dave K (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Carl Nelson
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| | | | | | | | (...) Alas, Bruce hasn't discussed anything about it, other than to ask a leading question and say that he won't provide any more information about it! (...) I don't think it could be characterized as a close friendship in any way. They associated (...) (21 years ago, 19-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | (...) So I expect to never, ever hear the phrase "liberal media" out of you, right, since it sided with Bush? :-) "We all know that election laws don't matter when Democrats are on the losing side..." Okay, back that up. Give some examples. As to (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Carl Nelson
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| | | | | | (...) No matter how hard I try, I can't swallow conspiracy theories--including "liberal media." It's too ingrained in human nature to blab for any conspiracy to long endure! I believe that the media is largely composed of liberals (just check (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | (...) I think you misunderstand me: the term "liberal media" is used to try and claim a bias in news reporting against conservatives. That's it - it's not a term dependent on there being a specific organized conspiracy. You are effectively using the (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Carl Nelson
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| | | | | | (...) Don't take my word for it--try reading Bernard Goldberg's book Bias. I don't think anyone can make any persuasive argument for Goldberg being conservative. He details from personal experience what happens when one questions the way that news (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | (...) Okay, but only if you acknowledge that "liberal media" is demonstrably false, while Dubya's "tax cuts for the rich" is demonstrably true. Dave! (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | (...) One book may be a revelation, or it could be a disgruntled whiner. It may be correct for the situation he was in, but not for the industry at large. It may even be correct for the industry at large, but by itself, it would be hard to draw that (...) (21 years ago, 16-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Carl Nelson
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| | | | | | (...) True, but it's very difficult to refute Goldberg's claims in the book. He makes several good points, such as: 1) Why conservatives are always labelled and liberals are not, e.g., why it's always "conservative" Antonin Scalia but never (...) (21 years ago, 19-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | (...) Virtually all of the Supreme Court justices have a liberal, conservative or morderate label attached to them, so it seems I have easily refuted Goldberg in all of a few seconds. As to Tribe, who is not a member of the Supreme Court, and thus (...) (21 years ago, 19-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Carl Nelson
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| | | | | | First, an apology: real life interferes with a lengthier reply on your message on things that we will never agree on; sorry for the lengthy snips. In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd wrote: (lengthy snip) (...) Hear, hear! (...) Many (...) (21 years ago, 19-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | (...) It is perfectly okay. It was indeed, getting to be a lot. (...) There! We don't have to agree to disagree! We can agree to agree. (...) Oh, hey, does this mean I've lost my standing in the international Hubris Society? ;-) (...) Teddy was (...) (21 years ago, 19-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Carl Nelson
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| | | | | | (...) Sure is. I mean no disrespect by not replying to all of your original message, and will do so still if you feel it's worthwhile--but I get the feeling the horse we're beating may be a little beyond dead! (...) I was thinking last night about (...) (21 years ago, 20-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | (...) Yes, but what does Bush have to do with the recall of Davis? This is a local mania of the Republican party, who have finally figured out that they can abuse the recall procedures against the Democratic party rather than their own. Given Dubya (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | (...) Hmmm... Schwarzenegger taps George Shultz for economic council (URL) Still think it's only a local GOP thang? We do not live in interesting times -- frightening is more like it... I don't claim to know precisely what is happening, but it's (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall —Scott Costello
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| | | | (...) While I agree that this is much more of a local issue than a federal issue, I just can't understand how there can be over 2 million "right-wing" conspirators. My experience has been universal disdain for Davis. Pretty hard to support this guy (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | (...) Actually, the Democrats kept control over Sacramento because the Republicans chose to run Bill Simon rather than rally behind a competent candidate. Now that this turned out to be a disaster (in more ways than one) they want to invalidate (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall —Pedro Silva
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| | | | (...) Come again? Wasn't California part of Mexico in a not-so-distant past? (...) Are you fully aware of how xenophobic that paragraph is, Scott? "Give me your POOR, your oppressed, your hungry..." I guess the words below Miss Liberty are only (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall —Scott Costello
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| | | | (...) Sure, over 100 years ago, before a war was fought and the area was in essence sold to the US. (...) I feared when I made my post that I would be called a racist, however as a grandchild of immigrants who followed legal chanels to become (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall —Carl Nelson
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| | | | | (...) Well-said. This country was built on immigration--I'm second-generation American myself. Legal immigration should be cheap, if not easy (we value dearly what we acquired dearly). Immigration should be for the purpose of becoming an American (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall —Pedro Silva
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| | | | (...) The sold portion is small when compared to the conquered portion, as you know. In any case, the main cities are not called St Francis, The Angels, or Sacrament: so you can't deny that Mexico has shaped what you know as California now. If (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall —Scott Costello
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| | | | (...) I really can’t argue with that, you are quite correct, although I lived for a while in a city called La Habra, I still have no idea what that was supposed to mean in Spanish, Abra I think (...) I looked xenophobic up on dictionary.com to (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | | | | | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall —Pedro Silva
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| | | | (...) I regret to say I don't know any more than you on this, the word is unfamiliar to me. Rest assured, I'll look into it and let you know ASAP what I find. (...) You're guessing correctly: racism is based on race, xenophoby on passport (to put it (...) (21 years ago, 16-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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