 | | Iraq, Dictators, and Peace
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Lets see the fastest way to achieve World Peace would be to nuke the entire planet. The world would be a peace. The best way to acheive World Peace would be for the United Nations to systematiclly eliminate any and all non-democratic governments and (...) (22 years ago, 21-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace
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(...) Sure it's a great idea, but are we really going to make life better for them? Are we going to replace the entire government and force industry to establish a suitable minimum wage? Are we going to force the new government to spread the wealth (...) (22 years ago, 21-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace
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(...) need (...) can (...) Yeah, that's the problem. Wouldn't it be nice if our great grandchildren could call themselves citizens of Earth. It would be a costly endevor to say the least, but it could be done. Liberating the people and educating (...) (22 years ago, 21-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace
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Maybe I read you wrong...I thought you were pointing out that someone had suggested liberation, while someone else shrugged it off and I hadn't heard anything of the sort... (22 years ago, 21-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace)
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(...) Why start with Iraq? Why try to overthrow democracy in Central America? Why support Musharraf in Pakistan? Why fund human rights abuses in Israel? Why make excuses for the Saudi's? Why back “democracy” in Kuwait? Why make a sponsor of (...) (22 years ago, 21-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace)
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(...) Which is what I wrote. I also said the United Nations should be doing it. (...) Its as good as anyplace to start. I also said EVERY dictatorship should be eradicated. Did you even read the post? -Mike Petrucelli (22 years ago, 21-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace)
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(...) If one has to start somewhere, Iraq is a pretty good place to start. Of course, one has to question Dubya's reasons (and complete lack of backing up his rhetoric with any thing like facts) for starting in the first place. (...) It's good for (...) (22 years ago, 21-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace)
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(...) Let's be real clear that such a foreign policy is likely NOT in the interest of the people of the U.S. -- far from it. By contrast, it may very well be in the interest of people like Bush, Jr. and his type. But tell ya what, Scott -- you reign (...) (22 years ago, 21-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace)
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(...) It would probablly benefit the Iraqi people a great deal. Personally I would have expected the United Nations to get rid of Sadam 2 years ago when he had about 12,000 Kurds (an ethnic miniority in Iraq) murdered in gas chambers. (...) Oh sure (...) (22 years ago, 22-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace)
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(...) Fact. (...) Does Kuwait really have democracy? (...) This is utter hypocrisy. (...) Worse for Afghans or the USA? (...) There may well be. Why not tighten the screws on Musharraf, the Saudi’s or Sharron? These guys rely on support from the USA (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace)
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(...) There will be a UK parliamentary debate tomorrow. Blair will give MPs 3 hours to read his "dossier" on SH and then expect them to reach an opinion and debate it... crazy. Scott A (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace)
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(...) This is news to me. Do you have a reference? Scott A (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace)
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(...) I don't agree. Why not clean up your own neighbourhood first? Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace)
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(...) Of course the perception is fact. "Perception" as in there is the perception that Israel is the victim. You misconstrued my answer. (...) Who cares? I was merely pointing out that you were being inconsistent. Or you weren't making your real (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace)
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(...) Israel is a victim. It is victim of its own history. However, none of that excuses its actions or what it suffers. It is a human rights abuser pure and simple. The USA actively supports it. (...) I'm not; democracy does not exist in Kuwait. (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace)
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(...) I can take that any number of ways. (...) The USA actively supports Israel, yes. So do others. You seem to be grinding an anti-US axe. Axe-grinders opinions are generally speaking, not to be trusted. They present only so much of the story as (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace)
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(...) Ok I mixed up Iraq's gassing of Kurds in the late 80s with Turkey bombing Kurds in Iraq about 2 years ago. Either way the Dictator should go. Do I think Bush Jr. is going about it in the proper way. Heck No! But even Bush Jr.'s self-serving (...) (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace)
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(...) interest (...) would (...) Kurds (...) (URL) Gee Brain I forgot the link. -Mike Petrucelli (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace)
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(...) My axe is pro-justice, not anti-US. (...) That is why I stick to fact, not opinion. I suggest you do the same. (...) My original point was why attack Iraq at the same time as supporting the misdeeds of others? (...) See above. (...) There is (...) (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | blair's dossier (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) ... and Blair has just published his "dossier": (URL) A (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: blair's dossier (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) This is the correct link: (URL) A (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace)
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(...) Inasmuch as your pro-justice axe only seems to be aimed at the U.S., I beg to differ. (...) How's this for a fact: you haven't addressed "They present only so much of the story as is convenient for their cause." Claiming that you stick to (...) (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) What do you expect, this thread is about US foreign policy! (...) Where do you want me to start, Adam and Eve? (...) You have asked me that already. (...) You have misunderstood me. Bush wants to liberate the people of Iraq. While he says (...) (22 years ago, 25-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) And that means said foreign policy must be analyzed in a vacuum? Nonsense. You are doing so because it suits your purpose and you explanation is just an excuse. (...) What? Not even "facts" this time? (...) You didn't answer it before, and you (...) (22 years ago, 25-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) Shall I compare Bush to Hitler? The fact that some of what Bush Jr suggests the USA should do is against international law should be enough. (...) I’ll tell you what, you show me which facts you think I am omitting. (...) You mean I did not (...) (22 years ago, 26-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) ...for how much of his track record did he have the support of the ‘West’? Did we act when he started gassing his own people? Was Bush Sr not willing to let his invasion of Q8 go with only mild rumblings until Thatcher convinced him (...) (22 years ago, 26-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) danger (...) about? (...) troops. (...) I wanted to insert a comment. I'm agreeing with Bruce by and large in this thread (because he doesn't _at all_ seem to be defending the US' naughtiness) but on this one point, I knew exactly what Scott (...) (22 years ago, 26-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) It all boils down to how many lives would have been saved/lost, and what value you put on them. If OBL comes back to annoy us, that will have to be put in the equation too. As will any moderate Muslim backlash. How many Afghan lives is 1 (...) (22 years ago, 26-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) Hey, "He who mentions Hitler first has lost the argument". Go right ahead! :-) Scott, c'mon. Stop and look at your answer. Here I accuse you of grinding an axe against the United States, and all you do is try to sharpen it further. Who do you (...) (22 years ago, 26-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) Notice how you never answer questions? That you just shift to a new attack? Iraq is not a destablizing force? Just say yes or no for once, and *then* append your explanations instead of this constant dodging. (...) Actually, yes, but not as (...) (22 years ago, 26-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) If you're a Tymbrini, there's got to be a practical joke coming here soon before we get to the denoument of this thread. :-) I can hardly wait! Speaking of practical jokes, did you ever notice that "Tymbrini" contains "Brin"? That has to have (...) (22 years ago, 26-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd writes: <snip> (...) <snip> (...) I agree!! Dave K -who is making his manilla folder bigger by the minute! (22 years ago, 26-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) I suppose it is obvious to everyone except Scott, but I'm not defending U.S. actions to any particular degree, I'm just objecting to Scott's axe-grinding and one-sided presentations. And I'm a liberal! I hate Bush. I don't like Israel's (...) (22 years ago, 26-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) Actually, that's how it started. I even pointed out that many of my answers were hardly serious, or not even necessarily my own viewpoint. I just thought Scott's santimonious self-righteousness need a bit of puncturing. (...) Tymbrimi. No "n". (...) (22 years ago, 26-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) the (...) All of them. War is hell. Chris (22 years ago, 26-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) OK, stand in front of a mirror and say "Scott's santimonious self-righteousness" three times fast. (...) "n", "m"... Sound about the same and not a lot of difference pictorially(1). Just one hump. And whats just one hump between friends, I ask (...) (22 years ago, 26-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: <snip> (...) <snip> I really don't know if I should post this link, first of all 'cause of the bad language factor, and it has to do with a little video game I play (yeah, my other hobby that takes (...) (22 years ago, 26-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) ...but you (& Chris) do share Bush's unilateral outlook to some degree, that is what I don't agree with. Scott A (22 years ago, 27-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) You are misrepresenting me. (...) I think you are wrong to feel safer. (...) Have I ever said they should be left in place? (...) No. Did I say that? (...) I'm not avoiding anything, you are jumping to conclusions and putting words in my (...) (22 years ago, 27-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) I find that comment a little full of "self-righteousness". :) Scott A (22 years ago, 27-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) What do you mean? I think you might mean that I am more concerned with the fate of Americans at war than others. If that's right, then I guess I do agree. Not so much on a philosophical level as on a gut reaction level. One random stranger is (...) (22 years ago, 27-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) I specifically said I don't agree with Bush's unilateral outlook. I'm critical of your axe-grinding, slanted presentations, and sanctimonious self-righteousness, but not always with your actual positions. Bruce (22 years ago, 27-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) How could it ever be otherwise? Who is actually righteous? =) -- Hop-Frog (22 years ago, 27-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: I point out that Scott meets everything with a new attack, and he proves me right yet again
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(...) Hey, Ill submit to judgment by my peers. Maybe we should run a "Who is the most self-righteous" poll? ;-) Bruce (22 years ago, 27-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) Okay, so it's redundant. I just like the tongue-twister aspects, as Larry noted. :-) Bruce (22 years ago, 27-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) I am. Didn't you get the memo? Dave! (22 years ago, 27-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) What part of this is becoming a Monty Python routine didn't you understand? The automatic gainsaying of whatever the other person said isn't an argument. You offer no support for your statements, while you leave support for mine right there (I (...) (22 years ago, 27-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) So you *would* bother to attack somebody? I wouldn't, so yes, we are in disagreement. So much for your holier than thou stance. (and by "bother" it was pretty darn clear I was refering to attacking Iraq, so let me anticipate your mindless (...) (22 years ago, 28-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) That's not my perception. Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 29-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) I meant, its not my perception that you "don't agree with Bush's unilateral outlook". BTW: Where did you "specifically" say you don't? Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 29-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) That's because you don't want to admit that there is anything wrong about your debating techniques, which is the real thing I'm objecting to. The subject is just the medium. This is now the third time I've pointed this out (all three contained (...) (22 years ago, 29-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) That's not how I view it. (...) You did not "specifically" say you don't agree with Bush's unilateral outlook. Scott A (22 years ago, 30-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) I missed this. Is this really the best you can do? Are you saying that only "7.5 thousand pound bunker busters" were dropped and that airmen did not have to fly at altitude to avoid the Stingers the USA had given to the Afghans? Is this (...) (22 years ago, 30-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) Really? I'm not aware we did? What was the USA's official response? How did it act? Educate me. I’m genuinely interested. Scott A (22 years ago, 30-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) I think I did. My point is that SH's track record can't be looked at in isolation.... he is of our making. He is trying to develop WoMD - that's bad. But what gives Bush, the president of a country with a colourful WoMD track record, a right (...) (22 years ago, 30-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) What exactly are you looking for, certain verbiage? Come off it. Chris (22 years ago, 30-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) Not quite, but that would nice. :) The quote above only tells us that Bruce is against a "unilateral attack on Iraq", not that Bruce does not share Bushes selfish unilateral outlook as far as the wider world is concerned. The difference is (...) (22 years ago, 30-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) Just ignore him. We both now he'll never concede anything. The guy has no shame. Bruce (22 years ago, 30-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) A dodge? You mean you don't want to explain your bunker-buster comment, tell us what the USA's official response to SH gassing his own people was, why you want to view Iraq in isolation or even what is “all Britain's fault”? Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 30-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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<snip> (...) You are misrepresenting me. (...) That's my informed opinion. (...) <snip> (...) Yeah. Yeah. Just keep jumping to conclusions. On 911 only one country on the planet was really talking to MO. About the 1st thing Bush did when he got out (...) (22 years ago, 1-Oct-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: world mandate (Re: Why start with Iraq? - (Re: Iraq, Dictators, and Peace))
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(...) You are putting words in my mouth again. (...) I was not referring to an attack. If you were, I misunderstood you. (...) A dodge? (...) You seem to be under the impression that I should jump through your hoops. I'm not trying to deceive (...) (22 years ago, 2-Oct-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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