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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Tom Stangl writes: (snipped) (...) Most criminals aren't psychic, either. So how can they tell if someone is armed or not? They just try their luck. If the victim is not armed, fine; if it is, too bad, one person will (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) Simple - they go to areas where weapons are hard to *lawfully* get. Statistics prove this out - the easier it is to *lawfully* get a gun, hence the more *lawful* citizens have them, the lower the "bad" crimes in the area. (...) No, they often (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) Statistics (...) *lawful* (...) Hmmm...I hate to point this out: UK murder rate by handgun is lower than US one...hmmm, seems that the _opposite_ effect is true. Or, look at Canada/US . Same sort of effects. Although, I think that it has a (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) You're comparing vastly different countries, with different mindsets. Compare within a country, especially within the US, and you'll see that states that allow easy lawful access to guns tend to have lower violent crime rates. Compare apples (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) This is news to me. So why are criminals criminals? (...) lol Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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"Tom Stangl, VFAQman" <talonts@vfaq.com> wrote in message news:3BC2954C.27A2A3...faq.com... (...) How are the US, Canada, and the UK "vastly different countries, with different mindsets"? (...) It seems to me the above is comparing apples with (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) How are they NOT? While they share many similarities, can you seriously say the mindset of the country as a whole is the same between them? Canada and the UK seem to lean too far to the Socialist side compared to the US, IMO. There are many (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) And what about *inside* them? Are these three nations that homogeneous? (...) OTOH, it can be said the US are too far to the Conservative side... it depends of the reference you take for "Centre". (...) Yes, but the UK did not need a (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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"Tom Stangl" <tom.stangl@sun.com> wrote in message news:3BC3637E.62D9EA...sun.com... (...) I think it depends on the intepretation of 'vast'. US, Iran, Thailand - now thats more like vast. US, Canada, UK - that's just shades of grey in my book. (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) While I don't have any knowledge of the laws of Canada and the UK, I'm pretty confident the rights enshrined in the US Constitution are not as well protected in Canada and the UK. (...) The right to bear arms is not the "almost single one (...) (23 years ago, 10-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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In lugn (...) the Bill of Rights (...) What??? You mean, that since we DON'T WANT your Bill of Rights, or your Declaration of Independance (we did it nicely enough ourselves, thank you without any guns from you prodding us :) (1812 :) - Canada is a (...) (23 years ago, 10-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) No, they are not. There is NO way that you can compare downtown Toronto with Elliot Lake (or Pickle Lake). I've lived in the biggest Canadian city, and in much smaller communities. I would say that the murder rate per populace _by gun_ was (...) (23 years ago, 10-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) Um, NO. That doesn't follow. Not unless every mugger in Canada kills their victim every time (if that happened, you'd have a lot more citizens killing muggers, with illegal guns if necessary). The statistics you quoted have to do with deaths, (...) (23 years ago, 10-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) It means that we have a legal framework which reflects the way we live today. We are not held ransom by a bunch of politically appointed lawyers arguing over semantics based on a centuries old piece of paper. Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 10-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) In close quarters, or in terms of hand-to-hand self-defense, a knife can often be deadlier than a gun. Based on what I've learned in self-defense classes, and from a bit of personal training by a friend who teaches martial arts, attempting a (...) (23 years ago, 10-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) But the issue is "close quarters." A gun is more or less equally deadly (other than matters of aiming) at a range of ten feet or of one foot; both can therefore be considered close quarters for a gun-wielder, but it's hard to disarm someone (...) (23 years ago, 10-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) Exactly my point. I'd rather face, within my striking range, a mugger with a gun than with a knife. (...) Clearly all that you say above is correct. Again, my point was that in hand-to- hand combat (as I define mugging), you often have a (...) (23 years ago, 10-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) In the large, more similar than different (and did I say "thank you Great Britain" yet today? Consider it said, and ditto for Canada, two true friends). But I think the point is that when comparing this particular facet, they are different (...) (23 years ago, 10-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) Well...it ain't all that big of a trick to import the guns into Ontario from NY either...but, that _still_ doesn't make the crime rate with firearms in Ontario all that high in comparison to most major US areas. Look at a US city with a (...) (23 years ago, 11-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) How far would they travel to do that? At least not to Europe ... (...) ... because these statistics must be within the US. And of course they prove nothing about how the situation would be like with a *consistent* legislation over the *whole (...) (23 years ago, 11-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) Guns are already more easily obtained through illegal channels in the US. Increasing the difficulty of obtaining a gun through legal channels will not stop any criminals from getting them. Why do people assume that just because something is (...) (23 years ago, 11-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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Let me play a bit of advocatis diabolis here ... (...) So, you would admit that there is a problem with SOMETHING in the US mindset? But you are sure it has nothing to do with arms? (...) ... and at the same time fuel the violent crimes in places (...) (23 years ago, 11-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) Violent crime involving robberies and non-domestic assaults are usually committed by people who are not likely to pick up and move to another state where concealed handguns are not allowed just so they can commit crime. You'd be very hard (...) (23 years ago, 12-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) I don't think you really hated point it out. Also, you're assertion, while certainly correct, supports Tom's stance better than your own once you look at the broader picture. The rate of violent crime is _greater_ in the UK than in the US. (...) (23 years ago, 14-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) NY (...) Ontario (...) Why do you folks obsess over the crime rate _with firearms_? Isn't the rate of crime what really matters? Or more specifically violent crime? Killed by a knife is just as dead as killed by a bullet, after all. (...) than (...) (23 years ago, 14-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) of (...) It's harder to kill someone with a knife than a gun...how many times do you hear of people killed via 43 stab wounds, vice a single bullet wound? Are you next going to say that if we limit access to guns, we should limit access to (...) (23 years ago, 14-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) Not a single word of arms there. What do you read between the lines? (...) Maybe, but even with the arms you US civilians do have, do you think that is realistic? :wq Horst (23 years ago, 16-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) Can you bring up any examples that have straight relationship to the topic? The problem with your apples is they lie so close together that if one of them is rotten it can too easily infect the others. However, that does not say that the (...) (23 years ago, 16-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) It was, but sight of that point was lost and unconstitutional restrictions imposed on what sorts of arms can be owned have now made it less realistic. That's the whole POINT of this debate, after all. (23 years ago, 19-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Violence created by presence of guns? (was: Gotta love Oracle...)
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(...) Yes. If a large chunk (say, 50%) of the US population used handguns and rifles to overthrow the national government for the sake of instilling a better one, I'm sure that we would defeat the military. They would not posess the will to put the (...) (23 years ago, 19-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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