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(...) Spot on. Those that sacrifice freedom for peace shall have neither. (23 years ago, 17-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Your constitution is 100's of years old. Perhaps it needs to be updated. Perhaps it needs a few more amendments (...) Perhaps you should not view it in those terms. Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Strange, but my idea of freedom is not living in constant fear of being shot. That's why each of you wants a gun - to defend yourself against all the others who have guns. It doesn't even occur to you that everyone else wants a gun because (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Whew!! now it all makes sense. The forefathers considered how long it took to load a muzzle and the likelyhood of the ammo spilling out when they proposed the right to bear arms... (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Nope. You are trivialising the issue rather than addressing the point. "The forefathers" could not comprehend what weapons would do in a few hundred years time (ie today). What do you think handguns will be like a few hundred years from now? (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This is distortive and false. You're not thinking deeply enough, you're just buying the line fed you. (...) Again, distortive. Read the Federalist Papers before you comment further, would be my suggesting. The absolute level of technology is (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Conveniently, we don't live in such fear. (...) Thanks for telling me my mind. But it turns out that you're wrong. I want, regardless of what others have, the maximally effective death-flinging device. I want that so that I am prepared for (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) They could comprehend that the same ordnance _must_ be available to both the military and the civilians. Chris (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) By whom? However deeply you or I think about this subject, the majority of gun owners (legal or illegal) do not. However noble your or the founding fathers' intentions, purchasing a gun for the purposes of home or personal defence, or carrying (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Even tanks? Even fighter jets? Even chemical weapons? Even ICBM's? Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yes, absolutely, and I don't think that's any misinterpretation. Quoting from the opening of the Declaration of Independence: (...) I think it's pretty clear that the founding fathers recognized that governments can and will become so corrupt (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yes. It does. Several. (...) I should, and I do. And there are many others like me. Chris (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I however, would urge and support a ban on weapons of mass destruction. Chris (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'd welcome a straightforward proposal of amendments and an honest debate. What gets up my nose is the chinese water torture we've seen lately in which the constitution has been suborned one step at a time by "activist" judges. I support (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This is another example in which it's useful to recall the context of the 18th century vs. the context of today. "Interstate" and "commerce" had strikingly different meanings back then, I suspect, or at least strikingly different applications. (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Do you think the could conciev how powerful democarcy would come. How everyone (more or less) would be able to vote? Or do you think they had events like the French revolution in mind? Scott A (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Perhaps. But the majority in the US does want more gun control. Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Does this not imply that you feel that the founders could not be wrong in any way, and that their intentions are 100% clear? Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) If such a majority exists, then they should have the ability to amend the constitution. I encourage their right to do so. And I don't fear it because I don't think it can happen. And if it does, I may well chose to break the law. I am nobody's (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This one is so riddled with typos I can't make it out. Would you please repeat the question, this time carefully checking for correctness? Thanks. (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No, it does not imply either of those things. I'm shocked, just shocked, that you would not be able to read my words and derive the clear meaning they contain. But oh well. The constitution suffers from lack of clarity in many places, (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Scott, Just so you know that Larry's not just being rude because of your...special...relationship, I have no idea what you're saying either. I think that I've put the words individually all back together, but I still just don't know what you (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Do tell... I'm rather at a loss on how there is a difference in the meanings of such fundamental terms. Rather, this was a deliberate misconstruing, done knowingly by Congress. Kind of like how Michigan's Right to Carry law was made referendum (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Would you support a rewording that was in opposition to your interpretation of the amendment and to your interpretation of the original authors' intent? (Assuming, of course, that any rewording was accomplished through legal and proper (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, for one thing, "commerce" included the sale of human beings, so while "commerce" still meant "trade in goods and/or services," the application of that word was materially different. Similarly, "interstate" transactions completed today in (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, you won't catch me defending the later politics of one A. Hamilton, but we also have Madison's Notes on the Convention, don't we? (URL) you can find The Federalist at: (URL) Hop-Frog (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: <<We are all a part of the militia and to be so without weaponry is foolish and irresponsible. Americans have not only a right to bear arms, but in my opinion a responsibility so that they are (...) (23 years ago, 18-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I support clarifying the meaning. Maybe the best way is to compose several alternative replacements that have different meanings (but all of which are clear in *what* they mean) and see which one survives the process. I'd actively work to (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Why. Because the gun lobby is too strong? Because the gun lobby pays too much money to your politicians? (...) You are a slave to your intransigent views! :) Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Oops Do you think they could conceive how powerful democracy would become. How everyone (more or less) would be able to vote? Or do you think they had events like the French revolution in mind? Scott A (23 years ago, 19-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Don't be shocked Larry, just read your own words: "Ignore it, interpret it in direct conflict with what the founders intended(1)?" Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) From a UK perspective, I see nothing wrong with laws slowly changing to mirror changes in society. In the US it would be very hard to ban guns overnight. They way to remove the risk caused by guns to Joe Public is to slowly tighten access to (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Do you think they really could understand how it could work out? How modern media makes politicians almost instantly accountable? How in transparent systems, like the UK, those funding politicians would be dragged out into the open? You will (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) But the fundamental question is, if something contrary to your personal view is chosen at the end of the legal process by a majority decision, would you abide by it? If it meant giving up your unconditional requirement to arm yourself, would (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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So what IS your point then? My point is that there are more dangerous things than guns. If I am not mistaken, one of the statistics sited here directly showed that most gun deaths are actually suicides...and that the percentage of child deaths is (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What is yours? (...) Oh. I see. (...) Does that make it OK? What does that have to do with your point? (...) It is still far too high in my opinion. (...) Not quite, but I will let it ride. (...) Read what Chris said. Read my reply. Think (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The below is a good question but does not address the question I raised above... (...) This is a good question... it gets to the root of, does one accept unconditional majority rule? The constitution is a fundamental document, superior (in the (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) If you still thought you were right, and the state allowed criticism, another option could be to stay and try to persuade others your view for correct. But where would you go if you were to leave the USA in the manner you describe above, which (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) How unconstitutional that would be. -) (...) If you still thought you were right, and the state allowed criticism, another option could be to stay and try to persuade others your view for correct. After all, if you were to flee, you would (I (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Sure, but in the mean time you'd be supporting evil. Some people seem to find that unacceptable. The best short term option would be to stay, breaking the law, and look for ways to change the system or better places to go. (...) That's the (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Not the details, but the general idea. (...) Probably not. But I'm not sure that it is a significant difference in the context of protection of freedoms. It is certainly significant from the POV of the potential politician. (...) I just don't (...) (23 years ago, 20-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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My goodness Scott has been busy, hasn't he? I lost count of his posts this morning. Including some real gems like "Why?" as the entire body of his reply. (...) Agreed. Scott is wrong in suggesting that they wouldn't be able to think ahead, if that's (...) (23 years ago, 20-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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My goodness Scott has been busy, hasn't he? I lost count of his posts this morning. Including some real gems like "Why?" as the entire body of his reply. (...) Agreed. Scott is wrong in suggesting that they wouldn't be able to think ahead, if that's (...) (23 years ago, 20-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The only point you seem to be making is that guns kill and therefore they must not be tolerated. More than once you have asked me if this is the best that I can do. I think that I have done qite well in showing other perspectives of this (...) (23 years ago, 20-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So busy, Larry, you've had to post twice just to keep up! :-) I was curious about the shortening of the shotgun though. Over here the sawn-off shotgun is the stereotypical east-end small-time shop/bank/bookie's raider's (...) (23 years ago, 20-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Something else. I'm not arguing agaainst clarity. I think it would be great for all concerned to clarify the constitution. But you're assuming that a process which had the task of reviewing and amending the constitution would end up with a (...) (23 years ago, 20-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Prisoners. Some previous prisoners. Children. many mental health patients. The homeless. People with a sloppy hand. Did I miss any? Chris (23 years ago, 20-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Are you kidding? Chris (23 years ago, 20-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Um, no I didn't. Right now we have a system in which whoever spends the most has the better chance of being elected. The money they spend doesn't actually DO anything other than enrich PR/media organizations. (not bad in and of itself, mind (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Thanks for the clarification! :-) (...) If I left you with the impression that I am making that assumption, I was unclear and I apologise because I really did not intend to say that. I realise there is a risk in any journey that you may not end up (...) (23 years ago, 22-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It shows how time changes things. What was good a few 100 years ago, might not be quite so good today. Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 23-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I am still sure I posted far less than other noise makers around here. :) (...) I think they would be able to think ahead. But not 100's of years ahaed. (...) I'm not wrong - you just do not agree. Right now, If I wanted, I could check the (...) (23 years ago, 23-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) A smiley is indeed needed. This view is a parody of a libertarian stereotype: More Property = More Rights Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 23-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No. Does the film say that? (...) So that is all a gun is : a luxury. I prefer a good bottle of wine any day. Or maybe new brakes for my bike (if any one is interested : I have ceramic 517's with Avid AR 4.0, but I do fancy some disks). Scott (...) (23 years ago, 23-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I must have missed the film. But that is what *YOU* seem to be saying. (...) Guns are a very popular luxury indeed. And so are telephones and automobiles. All of which have some very serious uses. (...) (23 years ago, 24-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I am not saying that. But it is a valid view. (...) I can't imagine life without a phone. I can live without a car (I cycle the 16 miles per day to work and back). I do live without a gun - I do not live in fear of criminals or the "state". (...) (23 years ago, 24-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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