 | | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) So you really do believe that ability == right. Why even use the word right instead of ability? Ability has no confusing connotations to other members of society, after all. (...) This I won't buy. I just zipped over to dictionary.com to show (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) My wife (who was on the pill the entire time I knew her, prior to our attempt at pregnancy) suffered very slight physical discomfort from her cycle. However, when she was premenstrual, she was quite simply irrational and agressive. (Of course, (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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At this moment I am drinking Mountain Dew; Code Red. I have the ability to drink it and have chosen to do so. The right to drink it is mine, I have given this right to myself. If, this afternoon, I were to learn that the governments of the world (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) OK, they were your points - I stand corrected. BTW : the questions you posed did remind me of an American stereotype we often see here. What I mean are those who say that they have "god given" rights. I always think that, in an agnostic (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I don't see this as a case of avoiding the point. I don't see any point in Lar (or anyone) rushing to answer these questions - I don't feel they have any real answer, they're kinda rhetorical, intended to get people to think about where rights (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Is might right, or just a reality? (Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) This is a very interesting point. I think most of us would say that might is not right. However, although he may just be talking about animals, Chrisis right when he says "Might makes reality". In most of our day-to-day lives might does win (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) If you mean you avoid the point(1), and I don't - I agree. (...) This sounds almost threatening. You must be pretty thin skinned Larry. Do you keep a little black book of all of those who "no longer have standing" with you, or do you use (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) This is how I feel thus it is true to me. I think the fundemental condition of "right" already existed in nature, as nature is our inspiration for nearly everything else-- art, music, even science. Our arts often try to capture that essence (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) *Little* problems? Ho ho ho... I dunno, I wouldn't call them that little. <only half tongue in cheek here> I know this varies, but some people I know, me included, have a lot more than just a "little" problem with the period. And I dislike the (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) During pregnancy, women do experience a "condition" (my wife is dealing with it right now). She is less able to perform physically. She goes to the car most work days and takes a one hourish nap. And she makes up the time. But she just _could (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Well, the idea is (in my mind) that morality in general has some "root" to it in order to be deemed morality at all. Heck, your morality is just as misplaced when ported to me as when mine is ported to a dog. And yet we do both. Are our (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) What about dolphins which have saved people with probably no real opportunity for bonding? My feeling is that most of what makes us human is not unique to us, but is exhibited to at least some degree by other animals. It is interesting to note (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Important point to keep in mind: amoral does not equal immoral. Immorality implies that the converse--morality--exists. But can't a competing, "dog idea" of morality exist? Why must human morality be ported to a dog, when moralism is (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Good examples! Dogs are pack animals, it is true. Is that sufficient to explain these behaviours? I don't know. Saving one's meal ticket would exhibit forethought. Do dogs have such? The conventional answer is that they don't, so that's not an (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I was off by a bit: "To have a right ... is ... to have something which society ought to defend me in the possession of." And also: "When we call anything a person's right, we mean that he has a valid claim on society to protect him in the (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) OK. You asserted "animals are amoral" with nothing to back it up. Go type "dog hero" into your favourite search engine, look through the list of hits. Many acts can be explained by (the dog exhibiting) self preservation, but what causes a dog (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Being the relative moralist that I am, I'll push that one step further and say I don't believe there *are* "natural" or "fundamental" rights. It's a moral definition humans create based on an emotional response. Perhaps, however, there are (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I was exploring the idea that perhaps the only fundamental right is the right to an impartial "rights based" mediation of disputes. This does suggest why animals then don't specifically have rights since they don't have the capability to (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Here is my take on the subject: From my dictionary here at work "Right (noun) - Something due to a person or governmental body by law." There are other definitions, but I feel that this one is the most relevant to the discussion. By this (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Well, yes and no. If you know or can establish that the person you are debating has a fundamentally different view of a basic principle, and has a track record of never changing their mind, it may be that the "best" you can do is get that (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Perpetuating folly is a flaw in anyone who does it, including me. When you and Scott go at it, you are equally at fault in perpetuating the folly of arguing with someone that has given you no cause to believe they will ever see reason (as you (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I'd go farther than speculating, I'd assert it, unless someone can prove that some specific animals do reason morally, in which case I'd consider that we might want to consider them as "human" rather than "merely" animal. (a tangential SF (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Thanks, Dave.I think this pretty beautifully illustrates the fundamental difference between Scott and myself, and between our debating styles. (charitably extending the term in one case) And it may illustrate why it irks me greatly when people (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Hah! Beautiful work, Dave! (...) Yes, Dave is right-- it seems evident here, Scott. I know you guys always disagree and you'll never convince each other to see an issue the same way so just agree to disagree. The world does not revolve around (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) Paid Time Off & Paid Flex Time -Duane <snip> (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) Yeah, it's too bad people choose dishonesty. It's their honor I guess and it will catch up to them sooner or later. I love watching "Dateline" or "20/20" when they catch people in insurance scams. A guy has "back problems" from a work related (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I would speculate, along with Larry, that animals do not have a system of rights in the same form as humans do. But I don't think we invented the condition of rights as much as they revealed themselves to us through nature. Do you think this (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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I'm very confused. Chris: (...) Scott: (...) Larry: (...) Scott: (...) Scott, please clarify. What *is* your position? Or is it merely whatever Larry is *not*? (...) Do you not do the same? Don't I? Doesn't Larry? Don't all morally conscious (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) A little of both dishonesty, laziness, and subconsious bias. And certain people would abuse it more than others, I think-- and of course SOME people abusing it leads to more, when their abuse becomes apparent. And SOME become offended. Etc. (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) 1st off, just to get it out of the way, what's PTO/PFT? Anyway, you sound like you're saying *equal* charity for *all*, yes? But that really doesn't follow from my own assumptions of what charity is-- charity being that which is selfless, and (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) My aim was to show how western morels have treated these two so differently. One is bought by the west so he can go on trial for murder, the other is given ~3.5 billion dollars in aid per year so that he may continue to murder. At the same (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) No, it sounds like you are puuting words in my mouth. (...) You "pass judgement" on others too much. Who are you to infer your moral values on others - judging them by your own standard? Do you assume you are the role model they should aspire (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) What is you point? (...) To Ross : Don't expect Larry to justify anything. (...) Larry, what are you taking about? Do you suggest the lion should eat grass? Or that the wildebeest should carry a gun? (...) Same as what? The same as you? Do you (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) To what end? Your implication seems to be simply that there are bad people. But we all know that. The discussion of what a 'right' actually is, has nothing to do (in my mind, at least) with whether or not certain people respect rights, or even (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Sounds like you agree, then: animals are amoral. They do not have morals or recognise rights the way that creatures with a developed reasoning system do. Note that to be amoral if you are not capable of being moral is not bad, it is not good, (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I agree. But calling the lion, in this case, amoral makes it sound like it has a choice? (...) Dead animals don’t run away. Dead animals don’t jab you with their big pointy horns. (...) You may be right. I am no expert. (...) The problem with (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) It sounds like you're were going somewhere good and have given up Larry. I assume (hope!) your goal in all this was not to get to the point where you could just tell folks that they don't understand rights. I think there must be common (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Look up the difference between amoral and immoral. There is nothing *immoral* about it, but it most certainly IS amoral, unless you think animals reason about morality and make ethical decisions. (To Ross, it's more reasonable to ask that you (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) It doesn't. You aren't the initiator of force. (...) If you initiate the use of force routinely you're not human in my book. (...) See above. ++Lar (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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