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I heard that they are going to create a totally new kind of track. I heard
it from a friend that heard it from someone inside lego aparently.
About the only way I can see this making any sense for lego is if they are
going to ditch electrics altogether and go unpowered.
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In lugnet.trains, Jonathan Wilson writes:
> I heard that they are going to create a totally new kind of track. I heard
> it from a friend that heard it from someone inside lego aparently.
>
> About the only way I can see this making any sense for lego is if they are
> going to ditch electrics altogether and go unpowered.
Jonathan -
Is it really necessary to post a rumor so unsubstantiated as this? All
negative rumors like this usually do is foster a lot of griping and
complaining, and we usually find out later the rumor wasn't true in the
first place. If people want to waste their time and energy blindly
speculating, that's their prerogative, but its really annoying seeing their
paranoia fueled by something that can't and won't be confirmed for quite
some time.
-Tim
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A friend of mine that has a wholesale account with lego heard from some
person inside lego that they were going to scrap the current 9v track and
go for a non powered track setup, more like duplo trains (the person at
lego didnt say why but I think its got something to do with Jack Stone)
Thats the info as I heard it, whether "something some random employee
inside TLC says" is to be treated as rumor or fact I will leave it up to
you to decide.
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I don't think LEGO® would leave a money-making theme such as trains hang
high and dry, it would be foolish...especially after almost 40 years of
continuous train production.
This is nothing more than a vicious, nasty rumour.
-Harvey
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In lugnet.trains, Harvey Henkelman writes:
> I don't think LEGO® would leave a money-making theme such as trains hang
> high and dry, it would be foolish...especially after almost 40 years of
> continuous train production.
>
> This is nothing more than a vicious, nasty rumour.
And that is your opinion.
The rumor was a change to the track, not the discontinuation of the entire
line. It could happen.
Suppose LEGO came out with a 9V multi-channel IR controlled train motor
(Manas? Spybotics?) that didn't require powered track?
Jonathan's second hand rumor is not so far fetched and IMHO he had every
right to post it.
-Rob.
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In lugnet.trains, Rob Doucette writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Harvey Henkelman writes:
> > I don't think LEGO® would leave a money-making theme such as trains hang
> > high and dry, it would be foolish...especially after almost 40 years of
> > continuous train production.
Can we be sure trains are a "money-making theme" in the longer-term? The fact
that much of the newer offerings can only really be had via S@H and that these
sets contain no real new parts makes me wonder what the long term plans for
trains are.
> >
> > This is nothing more than a vicious, nasty rumour.
>
>
> And that is your opinion.
>
> The rumor was a change to the track, not the discontinuation of the entire
> line. It could happen.
>
> Suppose LEGO came out with a 9V multi-channel IR controlled train motor
> (Manas? Spybotics?) that didn't require powered track?
>
> Jonathan's second hand rumor is not so far fetched and IMHO he had every
> right to post it.
I agree. "Rumour travels faster, but it don't stay put as long as truth."
Scott A
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In lugnet.trains, Jonathan Wilson writes:
> A friend of mine that has a wholesale account with lego heard from some
> person inside lego that they were going to scrap the current 9v track and
> go for a non powered track setup, more like duplo trains (the person at
> lego didnt say why but I think its got something to do with Jack Stone)
That sounds a bit of a pain. The motor would be bigger, making it hard to use
existing sets. But perhaps it is what the [mass] market wants?
Scott A
>
> Thats the info as I heard it, whether "something some random employee
> inside TLC says" is to be treated as rumor or fact I will leave it up to
> you to decide.
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> Can we be sure trains are a "money-making theme" in the longer-term? The fact
> that much of the newer offerings can only really be had via S@H and that these
> sets contain no real new parts makes me wonder what the long term plans for
> trains are.
Always true, but I doubt that they would leave the current system behind
just as they're on the brink of getting trains to become readily-available
to the mass market (at least where there's a Target) and thus having their
popularity shoot up. It wouldn't make sense, not from any standpoint.
> > Suppose LEGO came out with a 9V multi-channel IR controlled train motor
> > (Manas? Spybotics?) that didn't require powered track?
Great idea, but don't IR recievers have to have LOS with the transmitter to
recieve commands? There'd be no unobtrusive way to stash the reciever
without miniaturizing it.
> > Jonathan's second hand rumor is not so far fetched and IMHO he had every
> > right to post it.
Agreed.
-Stefan-
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On Sat, 5 Oct 2002 09:37:46 GMT, "Scott A" <eh105jb@mx1.pair.com>
wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Rob Doucette writes:
> > In lugnet.trains, Harvey Henkelman writes:
> > > I don't think LEGO® would leave a money-making theme such as trains hang
> > > high and dry, it would be foolish...especially after almost 40 years of
> > > continuous train production.
>
> Can we be sure trains are a "money-making theme" in the longer-term? The fact
> that much of the newer offerings can only really be had via S@H and that these
> sets contain no real new parts makes me wonder what the long term plans for
> trains are.
Is this really true though? After all, 3 of the 2001 train cars are
available at retail. Probably more significantly, there are 2
different retail starter sets that are built around the 2001 series of
trains.
Does anyone else suspect that by Christmas 2004 we will have retail
sets based around the Super Chief sets?
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In lugnet.trains, Mike Case writes:
> On Sat, 5 Oct 2002 09:37:46 GMT, "Scott A" <eh105jb@mx1.pair.com>
> wrote:
>
> > In lugnet.trains, Rob Doucette writes:
> > > In lugnet.trains, Harvey Henkelman writes:
> > > > I don't think LEGO® would leave a money-making theme such as trains hang
> > > > high and dry, it would be foolish...especially after almost 40 years of
> > > > continuous train production.
> >
> > Can we be sure trains are a "money-making theme" in the longer-term? The fact
> > that much of the newer offerings can only really be had via S@H and
> > that these
> > sets contain no real new parts makes me wonder what the long term plans for
> > trains are.
I suppose it depends on your definition of long term but I'm fairly
comfortable with the medium to long term (5-10 years) direction for LEGO(r)
trains. I wouldn't read too much into them not having new parts. LD
originated sets tend not to have any new parts (new colors, yes, new parts
no) in them, as discussed at length elsewhere.
I'm not at all worried about the future of the train line for at least 5
years, if not much much longer, based solely on what anyone can observe for
themself and deduce as a critical thinker. Look at the spectacular growth in
train clubs, look at the many new offerings in the line, and draw your own
conclusions.
> Is this really true though? After all, 3 of the 2001 train cars are
> available at retail. Probably more significantly, there are 2
> different retail starter sets that are built around the 2001 series of
> trains.
>
> Does anyone else suspect that by Christmas 2004 we will have retail
> sets based around the Super Chief sets?
It seems a reasonable supposition or suspicion. People who know for sure
wouldn't be able to say, of course. As you point out, the Super Chief cars
(2 whole SKUs) are now just about the only sets NOT available at retail.
As to the original rumor, I have a few things to say (and more generally,
about this thread)... while I don't give the rumor much credence, I don't
fault Jonathan W. for bringing it to the attention of the group. Information
is good. Even unsubstantiated rumor can be useful data, so thanks for
bringing it up!
In my view, there has been some (very mild) overreaction to it (and
overreaction to the overreaction, in turn), but nothing to really worry
about as of yet. Speaking as a curator, thanks all, for discussing this
rationally, and continuing to do so, it's appreciated, as I've been a bit
out of pocket since Thursday.
Larry Pieniazek
lugnet.trains curator
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In lugnet.trains, Jonathan Wilson writes:
> A friend of mine that has a wholesale account with lego heard from some
> person inside lego that they were going to scrap the current 9v track and
> go for a non powered track setup, more like duplo trains (the person at
> lego didnt say why but I think its got something to do with Jack Stone)
>
> Thats the info as I heard it, whether "something some random employee
> inside TLC says" is to be treated as rumor or fact I will leave it up to
> you to decide.
*bangs head*
Do you really think that with TLC's big push for LEGO Train clubs, the
support they're giving, and now selling My Own Train at retail, they would
do this? It makes zero sense. Here they are trying to build momentum for
LEGO Trains, and they'll change the system on themselves? Nope, sorry,
don't buy it one bit.
-Tim (who prefers to get his information firsthand)
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In lugnet.trains, Mike Case writes:
...
> Does anyone else suspect that by Christmas 2004 we will have retail
> sets based around the Super Chief sets?
The Super Chief locomotive and cars are absolutely beautiful. I've bought 15
sets so far, and I could see buying more. But, it is the poorest running
train since the inception of 9V.
As Jeroen de Haan has noted, the Super Chief cars are heavy, and they are
built low to the track. NCLTC ran a stock engine and cars at a simple oval
layout, but the train had to be kept quite short to run successfully. After
the show, Mike Walsh and I noticed that the bottom of the observation car
had dark marks on one of the bottom 2x6 gray plates below the car center. It
was rubbing against the track ties in the turns.
We had put baseplates underneath all of the track for the show, but had
secured only the straight track to the baseplates. This made the curves ride
approximately 1/2 plate higher, which was enough to cause the rubbing.
Later, at home, I set up a similar oval on the floor of my basement to
experiment. The track rests on Berber carpet (a low pile carpet often used
in offices), which is in turn on a carpet pad and poured cement. I found
that a seam invisible to the eye and touch in either the cement or carpet
was enough to cause the train to get hung as the back wheels of the engine
came out of the curve and hit the straight track. Even after moving the
track to avoid the seam, the locomotive had a lot of trouble pulling the
five stock cars around. The engine wheels slip as much as they roll forward.
To help with uneven track, I replaced the downward facing plates with tiles
on all of the cars. (I remember reading someone else doing this, but I can't
find that post.) That definitely helped with the resistance as the cars go
through curves. I also added a 'B' engine, with the motor either at the
front or back, and a couple of weight bricks over motor. This combination
did pretty well on the oval, but once I transferred the entire train to my
home layout, which has some 'S' curves, the train went to pot. It could
bearly go around the entire layout with the controller at full speed. The
Metroliner with one engine, on the other hand, could pull ten cars easily.
The Santa Fe also tended to separate the engine from the cars if I
accelerated too fast.
The next thing I need to do is test the pulling ability of different engines
to see if the engine is the problem, and probably also try with different
track and different controllers just to eliminate any bad components. But
judging from the experience I've had, and others have had, the Santa Fe
isn't ready to be shipped as a set with the existing controller and motors.
But hey, lots of folks should have trains by now. I'd love to hear your
success stories (and any helpful hints).
Cary
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In lugnet.trains, Kevin Wilson writes:
> Cary Clark wrote in message ...
>
> > The Super Chief locomotive and cars are absolutely beautiful. I've bought • 15
> > sets so far, and I could see buying more. But, it is the poorest running
> > train since the inception of 9V.
>
> Interesting - Jeremy Rear brought his Santa Fe ABA set to NWBrickcon this
> weekend and it kept slowing down to a crawl at certain places on the track
> for no discernible reason. Good old Thomas the Tank engine barreled merrily
> through the same places pulling a train of cars. We never did work out what
> the problem was before Jeremy had to pack up and go home.
>
> Kevin
Has anybody checked the wheel sets? Lego had some minor problems with the
Legend Metro-Liner and they seem to have major problems with grey (Santa Fe +
coaches) wheel sets now (as I heared from several people till now). These do
not run as smooth as the old wheel blocks did. The extra size and weight of
the new sets might be a problem too, but hey - there are 8-wide clubs that run
their much heavier stuff....
Regards,
Ben
A front end pulled Lego train _can_ be that long (126 cars):
http://www.fgltc.org/fgltc_record.html
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Call me crazy, but I believe there is a limit to how much weight one should
stack atop a 9V train motor. My previous V188 double-diesel was solidly
built...too much so, for I had to raise the controller up two or three
notches just so it could keep up with a 4565-type engine (on separate lines)
When you add the weight of cars behind these overloaded engines, the problem
becomes all the more compounded. Impressive as the Super Chief is, the
design may suffer from being overweight.
-Harvey (Talkin' off the top of my head again)
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In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> Has anybody checked the wheel sets? Lego had some minor problems with the
> Legend Metro-Liner and they seem to have major problems with grey (Santa Fe +
> coaches) wheel sets now (as I heared from several people till now). These do
> not run as smooth as the old wheel blocks did. The extra size and weight of
> the new sets might be a problem too, but hey - there are 8-wide clubs that run
> their much heavier stuff....
>
> Regards,
>
> Ben
>
> A front end pulled Lego train _can_ be that long (126 cars):
> http://www.fgltc.org/fgltc_record.html
Did you do anything to test those wheelsets to see if they were smooth
rolling before using them in the record attempt?
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In lugnet.trains, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> > A front end pulled Lego train _can_ be that long (126 cars):
> > http://www.fgltc.org/fgltc_record.html
>
> Did you do anything to test those wheelsets to see if they were smooth
> rolling before using them in the record attempt?
At least 95% of these waggons have been new (or like new). All we did, was
giving them a short look on the bottom side: if a wheel block is not attached
perfectly, then the wagon will run on only 3 wheels and cause higher friction.
All waggons have been put (of course without any lubrication!) on the track,
then they got a small push to see if they ran smooth. If they did not, we gave
a short view if a hair or some other problem has been obviously the cause for
that. I think we have not sorted any car out at the train show, but I left
some wheel sets at home, because they were older and too worn out.
I never had any trouble with wheel sets till I found a few bad ones in the
MOT-waggons. (And a friend of mine was not perfectly satisfied with the
wheelsets of 3225). In 40 boxes of 2126 I had nearly no malfunction of a
wheelset (maybe 4 wheelsets among 40x12 = 480 ones). My Santa Fe with waggons
is used as display set only, but IF I push it, it makes more noise than any
other train I own - I can not give prove if that is by heavyweight or bad
wheelsets.
Regards,
Ben
P.s.: among the 1000steine train fans some have already called S@H for
replacements and got informed, Lego knew about that quality issue.
P.p.s.: One tip at 1000steine told, one can partly improve the running
behaviour by moving the wheels on the metal axle (in case it is only
imperfectly mounted).
But in some cases even that is causeless, because the metal axle is bent or
wrongsized (or the housing of the wheelblock deformed).
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In lugnet.trains, Mike Case writes:
> On Sat, 5 Oct 2002 09:37:46 GMT, "Scott A" <eh105jb@mx1.pair.com>
> wrote:
>
> > In lugnet.trains, Rob Doucette writes:
> > > In lugnet.trains, Harvey Henkelman writes:
> > > > I don't think LEGO® would leave a money-making theme such as trains hang
> > > > high and dry, it would be foolish...especially after almost 40 years of
> > > > continuous train production.
> >
> > Can we be sure trains are a "money-making theme" in the longer-term? The fact
> > that much of the newer offerings can only really be had via S@H and that these
> > sets contain no real new parts makes me wonder what the long term plans for
> > trains are.
>
>
> Is this really true though? After all, 3 of the 2001 train cars are
> available at retail. Probably more significantly, there are 2
> different retail starter sets that are built around the 2001 series of
> trains.
Hmm. Perhaps this is a US thing (?), the only 2001 train sets we have in
non-lego shops in the UK are what looks like superfluous LD stock sold at a
slight discount.
Scott A
>
> Does anyone else suspect that by Christmas 2004 we will have retail
> sets based around the Super Chief sets?
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"Harvey Henkelman" <Ferroequus@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:H3LtG2.JDn@lugnet.com...
> Call me crazy, but I believe there is a limit to how much weight one • should
> stack atop a 9V train motor. My previous V188 double-diesel was solidly
> built...too much so, for I had to raise the controller up two or three
> notches just so it could keep up with a 4565-type engine (on separate • lines)
>
> When you add the weight of cars behind these overloaded engines, the • problem
> becomes all the more compounded. Impressive as the Super Chief is, the
> design may suffer from being overweight.
>
> -Harvey (Talkin' off the top of my head again)
I'm finding little reason to the whole friction issue.
My CN engine has two motors on it and it runs very fast on power level 2 of
the controller. I can tow 10 cars behind it without an issue
Now my legend Metroliner has issues on curves, it slows right down and makes
such an noise.
But I do notice that the wheelsets in the Legend Metroliner are stiff and
don't roll well. Some of them had notches on the wheels that I had to gently
cut off to make them spin without clicking...
Dean
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In lugnet.trains, Dean Husby writes:
> But I do notice that the wheelsets in the Legend Metroliner are stiff and
> don't roll well. Some of them had notches on the wheels that I had to gently
> cut off to make them spin without clicking...
Dean, sounds like your wheels had some production errors. I would encourage
you to call our Consumer Services Center and ask them to send you some
replacements. They should be able to get them to you in no time.
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Senior Producer
LEGO Direct
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In lugnet.trains, Jake McKee writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Dean Husby writes:
>
> > But I do notice that the wheelsets in the Legend Metroliner are stiff and
> > don't roll well. Some of them had notches on the wheels that I had to gently
> > cut off to make them spin without clicking...
>
> Dean, sounds like your wheels had some production errors. I would encourage
> you to call our Consumer Services Center and ask them to send you some
> replacements. They should be able to get them to you in no time.
>
> Jake
Dear Jake,
I would additionally beg you to give this information into your production
and quality control. Here we are all adults and train heads, our trains are
not operated too much and we have tons of stuff. If I have 40 wheelsets with
problems - who cares. I still have 400 older ones that are ok.
BUT if a kid or a newbie to trains gets a first set now and there is a lack in
quality, they might think Lego trains are like that. If a Metroliner is not
able to be operated with 2 extra club cars on flat surface(*) that is poor and
will not help you to sell more stuff......
Last point, why we can not do too much: It is hard to tell, in which case a
wheel block is 'bad' and in which it is 'ok'. That is not like black and
white, but there are all kind of grey in between. I am not too glad with 80%
of the latest wheel sets I got. But only 5% are really bad ones that will not
roll down a 5° slope. As written before we were once able to make up a front
pulled train of 126 waggons. That has been the 'average' quality of that time
(before 2000). If that is still your todays standard(**), I have to send back
at least 80% of my 100xx whelsets. I suppose your customer service would call
me mad for doing so.
So I think it is your point to work on this - please forward the information.
Kind Regards,
Ben
(who never would buy the cheaper MegaBloks, but who demands a high quality by
TLC then....)
(*) as written in the 1000steine board a few days ago....
(**) in the past TLC used the slogan: "Only the best is good enough for our
children."
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In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> I would additionally beg you to give this information into your production
> and quality control. Here we are all adults and train heads, our trains are
> not operated too much and we have tons of stuff. If I have 40 wheelsets with
> problems - who cares. I still have 400 older ones that are ok.
Ben, already done!
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Senior Producer
LEGO Direct
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"Reinhard \"Ben\" Beneke" <r.beneke@tu-bs.de> writes:
> BUT if a kid or a newbie to trains gets a first set now and there is a lack in
> quality, they might think Lego trains are like that. If a Metroliner is not
> able to be operated with 2 extra club cars on flat surface(*) that is poor and
> will not help you to sell more stuff......
I was going to add a small followup to this discussion last night, but it
got too late. So, I'll followup to Ben's post, even though my followup is
only indirectly related to what Ben is saying. Sorry about that.
I've got one Santa Fe, and one of the bogies on it was stifff. Some fiddling
(I'm not sure of the details, but it may have been just pushing and pulling
sideways on the frame versus the wheels) fixed it completely - the engine
will now roll down the slight slope on my tabletop, even if I don't want
it to.
My legend Metroliner engine has 2 problems:
- the power truck now falls off - it won't hold on. This could simply be
because its been on and off too many times, but this does surprise me -
I thought they would last longer than that (it can't have been on and
off more than a dozen or 2 times at the most). I haven't looked
closely since the Nalug show to see what is damaged.
- the engine comes off the track when going into corners. I believe this
is because of its stiff pivoting, due to the stiffness of the electric
wire for the headlight. That wire needs to be folded up and stuffed
inside the space inside the fuel tank, and presents significant
stiffness to the pivoting of the bogie. Then, if there is a slight
drop in the track, going from a straight section to a curve, then the
bogie can ride up the outer rail and straight off.
--
Experience should guide us, not rule us.
Chris Gray cg@ami-cg.GraySage.COM
http://www.GraySage.COM/cg/
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In lugnet.trains, Kevin Wilson writes:
> Cary Clark wrote in message ...
>
> > The Super Chief locomotive and cars are absolutely beautiful. I've bought • 15
> > sets so far, and I could see buying more. But, it is the poorest running
> > train since the inception of 9V.
>
> Interesting - Jeremy Rear brought his Santa Fe ABA set to NWBrickcon this
> weekend and it kept slowing down to a crawl at certain places on the track
> for no discernible reason. Good old Thomas the Tank engine barreled merrily
> through the same places pulling a train of cars. We never did work out what
> the problem was before Jeremy had to pack up and go home.
This is a real shame. These sound like pretty basic (ie avoidable) faults.
Scott A
=+=
Have you inspected Arthur's Seat yet?
http://www.bricklink.com/store.asp?p=scotta
"A reasonable man adapts himself to suit his environment. An unreasonable
man persists in attempting to adapt his environment to suit himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." (GBS)
=+=
>
> Kevin
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> NEW Cottage kit, 577 pieces! http://www.lionsgatemodels.com/cat-cott.htm
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> LEGO TOWN PLANNING information:
> http://www.lionsgatemodels.com/COntent/Townplan/townplan.htm
> BrickLink Lego parts store: http://www.bricklink.com/store.asp?p=Kevinw1
> The Guild of Bricksmiths(TM): http://www.bricksmiths.com
> Personal Lego Web page:
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kwilson_tccs/lego.html
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Hello,
Maby I have an explenation. I was in Legoland Billund today. They had a
factory sale with some
discontinued sets. There vere a lot of Duplo trains. Both tracks and whole
trainsets. Couldn't it
be these trains lego was going to "ditch"?
Just a thought
Lars Gertsen - Denmark
"Scott A" <eh105jb@mx1.pair.com> wrote in message
news:H3I5Ey.8nK@lugnet.com...
> In lugnet.trains, Rob Doucette writes:
> > In lugnet.trains, Harvey Henkelman writes:
> > > I don't think LEGO® would leave a money-making theme such as trains hang
> > > high and dry, it would be foolish...especially after almost 40 years of
> > > continuous train production.
>
> Can we be sure trains are a "money-making theme" in the longer-term? The • fact
> that much of the newer offerings can only really be had via S@H and that • these
> sets contain no real new parts makes me wonder what the long term plans • for
> trains are.
>
> > >
> > > This is nothing more than a vicious, nasty rumour.
> >
> >
> > And that is your opinion.
> >
> > The rumor was a change to the track, not the discontinuation of the • entire
> > line. It could happen.
> >
> > Suppose LEGO came out with a 9V multi-channel IR controlled train motor
> > (Manas? Spybotics?) that didn't require powered track?
> >
> > Jonathan's second hand rumor is not so far fetched and IMHO he had every
> > right to post it.
>
> I agree. "Rumour travels faster, but it don't stay put as long as truth."
>
> Scott A
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> I'm finding little reason to the whole friction issue.
>
> My CN engine has two motors on it and it runs very fast on power level 2 of
> the controller. I can tow 10 cars behind it without an issue
>
> Now my legend Metroliner has issues on curves, it slows right down and makes
> such an noise.
I agree with that! And I bought all of the newer cars (10013/14/15/16/17)
and buy just making a very simple train with them + 1 loc, it has a very
hard time on curves and not fast on a straight track. I never had that
problem with all the trains I had before, especially the noise...
Saddly to wonder what's going on and should I buy more train cars in the
future? I'm planning on buying (investing!) on the new 10022/25 but now I'm
not so sure.
Can someone have a good review to make?
Jean-Marc
>
> But I do notice that the wheelsets in the Legend Metroliner are stiff and
> don't roll well. Some of them had notches on the wheels that I had to gently
> cut off to make them spin without clicking...
>
> Dean
|
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I have two Santa Fe engines and a B Unit I built to go with them. I have two
moters one on each of the A units. I too had a hard time with the SF engines
pulling more then 10 cars. It always seemed to bog down in the turns.
Recently I had all my Gray wheels replaced and now my SF runs 10 times
better. Infact with it set only at power setting 1 it will pull ten cars
with no problem through the turns. I dont have any of the SF coaches so I
cant do a test with them. But getting the wheels replaced seems the best
option if you have problems with the SF running sluggish.
Dave
In lugnet.trains, Jean-Marc Détraz writes:
> > I'm finding little reason to the whole friction issue.
> >
> > My CN engine has two motors on it and it runs very fast on power level 2 of
> > the controller. I can tow 10 cars behind it without an issue
> >
> > Now my legend Metroliner has issues on curves, it slows right down and makes
> > such an noise.
>
> I agree with that! And I bought all of the newer cars (10013/14/15/16/17)
> and buy just making a very simple train with them + 1 loc, it has a very
> hard time on curves and not fast on a straight track. I never had that
> problem with all the trains I had before, especially the noise...
> Saddly to wonder what's going on and should I buy more train cars in the
> future? I'm planning on buying (investing!) on the new 10022/25 but now I'm
> not so sure.
>
> Can someone have a good review to make?
>
> Jean-Marc
>
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In lugnet.trains, Jake McKee writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Dean Husby writes:
>
> > But I do notice that the wheelsets in the Legend Metroliner are stiff and
> > don't roll well. Some of them had notches on the wheels that I had to gently
> > cut off to make them spin without clicking...
>
> Dean, sounds like your wheels had some production errors. I would encourage
> you to call our Consumer Services Center and ask them to send you some
> replacements. They should be able to get them to you in no time.
>
> Jake
Dear Jake,
a German Co-AFOL has had trouble with the Santa Fe train as well.
He called the consumer service for replacement wheel sets and got informed the
Super Chief was not meant as a train set, but as a display set for the shelf
only. So there is no need for working (+ replacement) wheels at all... :-(
http://f24.parsimony.net/forum61776/messages/52984.htm
(only in German)
Is that the way to handle a mayor quality issue?
Today we read even about bad running MOT-sets as Jean-Marc has posted here.
http://news.lugnet.com/trains/?n=18039
And in the reply on that message we get the proof (by David VinZant), that a
Santa Fe A-B-A unit can handle 10 (old) cars, if only old black wheel sets are
used.
I love all the new S@H 9V train sets and I appreciate all the efforts of TLC
towards us train fans. But all this depends on the operational reliability. A
display train might be nice, but we want rolling stock. I am really
dissappointed about the todays messages. I thought this thread was a dead
horse already, but hearing the Super Chief was only a display model makes me
upset.
Regards,
Ben
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In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> Dear Jake,
> a German Co-AFOL has had trouble with the Santa Fe train as well.
> He called the consumer service for replacement wheel sets and got informed the
> Super Chief was not meant as a train set, but as a display set for the shelf
> only. So there is no need for working (+ replacement) wheels at all... :-(
> http://f24.parsimony.net/forum61776/messages/52984.htm
> (only in German)
> Is that the way to handle a mayor quality issue?
> Ben
That's shocking! They're obviously meant as running models because grey
motor side-bars are included in the set! Why would there be alternate parts
and instructions for motorising and adding rail-powered lights to a
display-only set?
They may be able to make this feeble excuse for the Hogwart's Express train
set, but not for the Santa Fé.
Jason J Railton
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For a long time, I resisted buying any of the Super Chief sets. The models
DO look a little top-heavy, and LEGO® has slipped on their quality control
like never before seen in their history.
People say that LEGO® is too expensive, and that they should lower their
prices. But remember that you get what you pay for...this rings true in all
aspects of consumer goods and services.
I for one do not want to see LEGO® sink to the level of mega-bloks and the
other clone brands. (heck, even my mother knows LEGO® is the best)
What I DID buy is a pair of the light gray wheels for use under my silo
waggon http://community.webtv.net/Ferroequus/GoodsWaggons1 and they do have
more rollling resistance than the standard black wheels, unfortunately.
Preminum price= premium service
ValuJet price= a crash in the swamp (and going out of business)
-Harvey
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Reinhard \"Ben\" Beneke wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Jake McKee writes:
>
> > In lugnet.trains, Dean Husby writes:
> >
> >
> > > But I do notice that the wheelsets in the Legend Metroliner are stiff and
> > > don't roll well. Some of them had notches on the wheels that I had to gently
> > > cut off to make them spin without clicking...
> >
> > Dean, sounds like your wheels had some production errors. I would encourage
> > you to call our Consumer Services Center and ask them to send you some
> > replacements. They should be able to get them to you in no time.
> >
> > Jake
>
>
> Dear Jake,
>
> a German Co-AFOL has had trouble with the Santa Fe train as well.
> He called the consumer service for replacement wheel sets and got informed the
> Super Chief was not meant as a train set, but as a display set for the shelf
> only. So there is no need for working (+ replacement) wheels at all... :-(
>
> http://f24.parsimony.net/forum61776/messages/52984.htm
> (only in German)
>
> Is that the way to handle a mayor quality issue?
>Ben
Hmmm, this sounds very, VERY bad!
A consumer Service Department is meant to provide SERVICE !!
Bad parts are bad parts, and there should only ONE PROPER ANSWER from a
service employee: 'Sorry, of course w'll replace your bad Legos'
That's it, no more, NO LESS !!
No stupid denials and 'meant to be for display' bla, bla, bla'. The
Constellation, that's a display set!
Maybe they've a bit forgotten who actually pay their salary: the
Costumers, not the boss....
NOTE: In the Netherland 2 sets of Lego are elected 'Toy of the Year 2002'
The Jury stated that one of the better aspects of Lego is: the HIGH
LEVEL of Costumer SERVICE !!??? ..........is it ?????
Klaas
PS: Which newsgroup is best read by Lego-employee's?? I'll gladly post,
repost, crosspost etc. this message to that group.
And Ben: maybe we can have some Very Clear discussion about the
Service-topic (with the Lego-guys) during the Legoworld event!
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"Harvey Henkelman" <Ferroequus@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:H42q1E.1qM@lugnet.com...
[ ... snipped ... ]
>
> Preminum price= premium service
>
> ValuJet price= a crash in the swamp (and going out of business)
[ ... snipped ... ]
But they really didn't go out of business. They simply reorganized under
Chapter 11 as ATA (American Trans Air or something like that). Same planes,
still based out of Atlanta, same employees, etc.
Mike
FUT: lugnet.general - I was going to send it to .off-topic but none of the
subgroups made any sense.
--
Mike Walsh - mike_walsh at mindspring.com
http://www.ncltc.cc - North Carolina LEGO Train Club
http://www.carolinatrainbuilders.com - Carolina Train Builders
http://www.bricklink.com/store.asp?p=mpw - CTB/Brick Depot
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In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> a German Co-AFOL has had trouble with the Santa Fe train as well.
> He called the consumer service for replacement wheel sets and got informed the
> Super Chief was not meant as a train set, but as a display set for the shelf
> only. So there is no need for working (+ replacement) wheels at all... :-(
>
> http://f24.parsimony.net/forum61776/messages/52984.htm
> (only in German)
This is absolutely not true. These sets are very much meant to be run. They
were never intended to be "display only" models. Whoever he talked to was
misinformed.
> Is that the way to handle a mayor quality issue?
>
> Today we read even about bad running MOT-sets as Jean-Marc has posted here.
> http://news.lugnet.com/trains/?n=18039
Hmm... this is very odd. The MOT have been on the market for a year, and
this is the first that we have heard about it having problems.
> And in the reply on that message we get the proof (by David VinZant), that a
> Santa Fe A-B-A unit can handle 10 (old) cars, if only old black wheel sets are
> used.
I asked around this morning and discovered something interesting about the
train wheels. The train wheels are one of the few items that are
manufactured by a third party. We discovered that there were some design
changes made to the wheels somewhere along the line without our knowledge or
consent. We are working to resolve this now.
That being said, please keep in mind that AFOLs run their trains though many
more strenous situations than most consumers. With custom grades, very long
trains, etc. you really give the trains a workout!
> I love all the new S@H 9V train sets and I appreciate all the efforts of TLC
> towards us train fans. But all this depends on the operational reliability. A
> display train might be nice, but we want rolling stock. I am really
> dissappointed about the todays messages. I thought this thread was a dead
> horse already, but hearing the Super Chief was only a display model makes me
> upset.
Well, then you have no reason to be upset. The Santa Fe cars/locomotive was
never meant as a display model. You should know us better than that! :)
Thanks bringing this up!
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Senior Producer
LEGO Direct
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In lugnet.trains, Jake McKee writes:
> I asked around this morning and discovered something interesting about the
> train wheels. The train wheels are one of the few items that are
> manufactured by a third party.
(the old saying: "If you want it done right, do it yourself"... springs to
mind. This of course conflicts with "do what you do well, and let others do
the rest")
> We discovered that there were some design
> changes made to the wheels somewhere along the line without our knowledge or
> consent. We are working to resolve this now.
>
> That being said, please keep in mind that AFOLs run their trains though many
> more strenous situations than most consumers. With custom grades, very long
> trains, etc. you really give the trains a workout!
Thanks for the update on this. I hope it turns out to be easy to resolve!
I'm just shuddering at the expense of replacing all those wheelsets, even if
it's only AFOLs that send all theirs in. I know I have more than 100 grey
wheelsets already and more on the way.
Can someone propose a quick jig or fixture test that can test a wheelset by
itself to see if it has the problem? I don't want to actually build all the
cars (most of which are destined for parts anyway) to see.
I tried the old "flick it with your thumb and see how long it spins" but
that test is inconclusive and inaccurate.
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In lugnet.trains, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> Can someone propose a quick jig or fixture test that can test a wheelset by
> itself to see if it has the problem? I don't want to actually build all the
> cars (most of which are destined for parts anyway) to see.
>
> I tried the old "flick it with your thumb and see how long it spins" but
> that test is inconclusive and inaccurate.
And I was just going to suggest the 'flick' test... <grin>
How about something simple like a couple of pieces of straight track, with
some bracing so they fairly solid? Put two wheels together, put them on one
end of the jig, and raise that end until the wheels start to roll. (Kinda
like a 'stimp meter' for you golfers.)
If you put some extra weight bricks on top of the two wheelsets, it would
give you a fairly accurate idea of how well the wheels roll.
Most of our older 9volt wheels will roll with a very small grade. I haven't
checked any of our grey wheels, since we haven't built any rolling stock
with them (yet!)...
JohnG, GMLTC
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> I'm just shuddering at the expense of replacing all those wheelsets, even if
> it's only AFOLs that send all theirs in. I know I have more than 100 grey
> wheelsets already and more on the way.
Jake/LD,
It should be easy for LD to check who they sold problem batches to as most
of them will have been sold by via mail order(?). I wonder if this can be
sorted that way? ;)
Scott A
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When you say you replaced the wheels, are you referring to the whole kit 'n
caboodle or just the axle?
-Stefan-
In lugnet.trains, David VinZant writes:
> I have two Santa Fe engines and a B Unit I built to go with them. I have two
> moters one on each of the A units. I too had a hard time with the SF engines
> pulling more then 10 cars. It always seemed to bog down in the turns.
> Recently I had all my Gray wheels replaced and now my SF runs 10 times
> better. Infact with it set only at power setting 1 it will pull ten cars
> with no problem through the turns. I dont have any of the SF coaches so I
> cant do a test with them. But getting the wheels replaced seems the best
> option if you have problems with the SF running sluggish.
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> In lugnet.trains, Jean-Marc Détraz writes:
> > > I'm finding little reason to the whole friction issue.
> > >
> > > My CN engine has two motors on it and it runs very fast on power level 2 of
> > > the controller. I can tow 10 cars behind it without an issue
> > >
> > > Now my legend Metroliner has issues on curves, it slows right down and makes
> > > such an noise.
> >
> > I agree with that! And I bought all of the newer cars (10013/14/15/16/17)
> > and buy just making a very simple train with them + 1 loc, it has a very
> > hard time on curves and not fast on a straight track. I never had that
> > problem with all the trains I had before, especially the noise...
> > Saddly to wonder what's going on and should I buy more train cars in the
> > future? I'm planning on buying (investing!) on the new 10022/25 but now I'm
> > not so sure.
> >
> > Can someone have a good review to make?
> >
> > Jean-Marc
> >
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I ment that I called up LEGO and they sent me a whole new set of wheels.
THey had no problem with it. After replacing the old SF wheels with the new,
I looked at what would cause the high friction. It looks like the outer most
diamater of the wheel was rubbing on the frame.
Hope that clears that up.
Dave
In lugnet.trains, Stefan Garcia writes:
> When you say you replaced the wheels, are you referring to the whole kit 'n
> caboodle or just the axle?
>
> -Stefan-
>
> In lugnet.trains, David VinZant writes:
> > I have two Santa Fe engines and a B Unit I built to go with them. I have two
> > moters one on each of the A units. I too had a hard time with the SF engines
> > pulling more then 10 cars. It always seemed to bog down in the turns.
> > Recently I had all my Gray wheels replaced and now my SF runs 10 times
> > better. Infact with it set only at power setting 1 it will pull ten cars
> > with no problem through the turns. I dont have any of the SF coaches so I
> > cant do a test with them. But getting the wheels replaced seems the best
> > option if you have problems with the SF running sluggish.
> >
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> > In lugnet.trains, Jean-Marc Détraz writes:
> > > > I'm finding little reason to the whole friction issue.
> > > >
> > > > My CN engine has two motors on it and it runs very fast on power level 2 of
> > > > the controller. I can tow 10 cars behind it without an issue
> > > >
> > > > Now my legend Metroliner has issues on curves, it slows right down and makes
> > > > such an noise.
> > >
> > > I agree with that! And I bought all of the newer cars (10013/14/15/16/17)
> > > and buy just making a very simple train with them + 1 loc, it has a very
> > > hard time on curves and not fast on a straight track. I never had that
> > > problem with all the trains I had before, especially the noise...
> > > Saddly to wonder what's going on and should I buy more train cars in the
> > > future? I'm planning on buying (investing!) on the new 10022/25 but now I'm
> > > not so sure.
> > >
> > > Can someone have a good review to make?
> > >
> > > Jean-Marc
> > >
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Yup. Thanks.
-Stefan-
In lugnet.trains, David VinZant writes:
> I ment that I called up LEGO and they sent me a whole new set of wheels.
> THey had no problem with it. After replacing the old SF wheels with the new,
> I looked at what would cause the high friction. It looks like the outer most
> diamater of the wheel was rubbing on the frame.
> Hope that clears that up.
>
> Dave
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In lugnet.trains, David VinZant wrote:
> It looks like the outer most diamater of the wheel was rubbing on the frame.
That's it in a nutshell. I bought some SF carriages and Super Chief and after
running them for only a short amount of time it slowed right down.
The Motor was cutting out due to the load, from the weight of these heavier
carriages. Not the pulling weight, but the weight of the carriage was pushing
the wheels into the plastic frame that holds the axle.
I have other very old black wheel sets that jammed up the same way. I suspect
that the grey ones failed quicker due to the weight.
But all is not lost, I bought some brass chubing (3mm I think) and cut lots of
lengths about 10mm long. Pop the wheel off the axle and slip two of these brass
bushes onto the axle. Wheel back on and clip the axle back in place.
No modification needed to any plastic.
The extra circumference of the brass keeps the axle from seating too low, so it
will not rub on the frame. I did this to all my axles and everything has been
perfect since. No wear, no friction, and no lubrication needed.
Sometimes the spread of the wheels has to be adjusted. The best test is to roll
them over a cross track. If they run through there whichout catching then the
wheel spread is right.
I checked all my black wheel sets (some are 14+ years old) and most of them had
signs of wear on the frame. The heavier the carriage the more wear.
So I would conclude that it wasn't a poor batch in manufacturing but just a poor
design.
I have invested quite a bit in this Lego train hobby so a few dollars for the
brass was nothing.
Hope this helps.
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In lugnet.trains, Peter Edwards wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Peter Edwards wrote:
> > The extra circumference of the brass keeps the axle from seating too low, so it
> > will not rub on the frame.
>
> http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/pe668/Crazy/z-100_1440.jpg
Brilliant. How much would those cost to have run off in large quantities I
wonder? Way better solution than knifing away plastic if it works...
++Lar
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In lugnet.trains, Larry Pieniazek wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Peter Edwards wrote:
> > In lugnet.trains, Peter Edwards wrote:
> > > The extra circumference of the brass keeps the axle from seating too low, so it
> > > will not rub on the frame.
> >
> > http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/pe668/Crazy/z-100_1440.jpg
>
> Brilliant. How much would those cost to have run off in large quantities I
> wonder? Way better solution than knifing away plastic if it works...
>
> ++Lar
Hi all!
This is in fact a nice idea!
But I have one comment to make: this solution is causing friction between brass
tube and metal axle, while the original solution is "rubbing" only on the very
tip of the metal axle. The higher the diameter of the friction zone, the higher
the torque to overcome.
For light weight waggons this solution will end up in a (somewhat) higher
running resistance (maybe not to mention if you put a miligramm of grease in
between).
For heavier waggons this would be a perfect and reliable solution! Excellent
idea and thanks for sharing it!
Leg Godt!
Ben
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A slightly better solution may be to find similar stock in the
pre-lubricated bronze used for bushings. I don't know the true name of
the stuff, but if tubing of the right size could be found, you wouldn't
need to worry about grease or oil.
Reinhard "Ben" Beneke wrote:
> > In lugnet.trains, Peter Edwards wrote:
> > The extra circumference of the brass keeps the axle from seating too low, so it
> > will not rub on the frame.
> > http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/pe668/Crazy/z-100_1440.jpg
>
> But I have one comment to make: this solution is causing friction between brass
> tube and metal axle, while the original solution is "rubbing" only on the very
> tip of the metal axle. The higher the diameter of the friction zone, the higher
> the torque to overcome.
>
> For light weight waggons this solution will end up in a (somewhat) higher
> running resistance (maybe not to mention if you put a miligramm of grease in
> between).
>
> For heavier waggons this would be a perfect and reliable solution! Excellent
> idea and thanks for sharing it!
--
Tom Stangl
* http://www.vfaq.com/
* DSM Visual FAQ home
* 90 Talon AWD
* http://www.vfaq.net/
* Prius Visual FAQ Home
* 04 Prius AM #7
* 06 Prius NL #7
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In lugnet.trains, Thomas Stangl wrote:
> A slightly better solution may be to find similar stock in the
> pre-lubricated bronze used for bushings. I don't know the true name of
> the stuff, but if tubing of the right size could be found, you wouldn't
> need to worry about grease or oil.
Umm yeah, well I think you missed the point, NO lube is needed
In lugnet.trains, Peter Edwards wrote:
> The extra circumference of the brass keeps the axle from seating too low, so it
> will not rub on the frame. I did this to all my axles and everything has been
> perfect since. No wear, no friction, and no lubrication needed.
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Cool, missed that part.
Now...details on the sizing, where to buy, etc?
I'm sure I could bore out some brass rod, but if you have a supplier
that stocks the right size, it would save a ton of time...
pe668 wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Thomas Stangl wrote:
> > A slightly better solution may be to find similar stock in the
> > pre-lubricated bronze used for bushings. I don't know the true name of
> > the stuff, but if tubing of the right size could be found, you wouldn't
> > need to worry about grease or oil.
>
> Umm yeah, well I think you missed the point, NO lube is needed
>
> In lugnet.trains, Peter Edwards wrote:
> > The extra circumference of the brass keeps the axle from seating too low, so it
> > will not rub on the frame. I did this to all my axles and everything has been
> > perfect since. No wear, no friction, and no lubrication needed.
--
Tom Stangl
* http://www.vfaq.com/
* DSM Visual FAQ home
* 90 Talon AWD
* http://www.vfaq.net/
* Prius Visual FAQ Home
* 04 Prius AM #7
* 06 Prius NL #7
|
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In lugnet.trains, Thomas Stangl wrote:
> Cool, missed that part.
>
> Now...details on the sizing, where to buy, etc?
>
> I'm sure I could bore out some brass rod, but if you have a supplier
> that stocks the right size, it would save a ton of time...
I picked up 300mm x 3mm rod just in a local hobby shop
http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/pe668/Crazy/z_100_1438.jpg
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In lugnet.trains, Peter Edwards wrote:
| |
In lugnet.trains, Peter Edwards wrote:
| |
The extra circumference of the brass keeps the axle from seating too low, so
it will not rub on the frame.
|
http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/pe668/Crazy/z-1001440.jpg
|
I would like to follow-up on this. This year NELUG participated at
Brick Blast Vermont.
This was are first experiance doing a mid summer train show and it was extremely
hot and humid durring the event. My trains which have been running at shows for
7+ years would not run at all because of the friction in the wheel sets. Others
had better luck but had to run significantly shorter trains than normal and even
then transformers were over heating left and right.
Anyway when we got back we started searching for a solution and I decided to try
this one. I have only modified the worst of my train cars so far but I have to
say the differance is significant and it requires no cutting of the ABS. It was
also relatively cheap. I paid about $2.75 for a 3’ lenght of 1/8” tubing and
another $5 for a tubing cutter. I will be modifying all my wheel sets soon.
For those looking for supplies you can get the Tubing at most hobby stores. I
went to Hobby Town USA and got the tubing. The
tubing itself is from K&S Engineering. They had both brass and aluminum in stock the aluminum was
cheaper but also a lot softer and in general a lot less straight.
All they had to cut it was hack saws so I passed on that. I got a
mini tubing cutter from Ace Hardware. I found the tubing still needed to be
reemed a little after cutting but that wasn’t to bad (I actually used an axel to
reem the ends). You could probably cut using a dremel as well.
This solution is fantastic because it does 2 things. First it creates more
separation between the flang and the housing and second it creates a lot more
metal to metal contact and a lot less metal to plastic contact which also
reduces friction significantly.
Great solution!
-Eric
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I tried this solution out for myself, and it didn’t produce the best results for
rolling friction. Not to say it isn’t a good solution, because I do see major
improvements, but just that there is a better one.
Adding the metal sleeve around the axle, lifted the wheels enough so that the
flanges weren’t touching anymore. When tested, I saw a major improvement in
rolling distance. However it also added more rolling friction to the wheels
(length of the sleeve pressing against the axle) so I knew there should be a
better way.
Instead of the axle sleeve being the entire length, I decided to try using two
bushings (axle sleeve cut down really short) at each end of the axle, but it
didn’t help much. Might have been burrs in the inside for this test, because it
was really hard holding the bushing a filing at the same time. If you could get
rid of the burrs this might actually be a good solution.
The best solution would be one that prevents the flanges from rubbing without
adding any friction. A fellow Nelug memember mentioned cutting notches in the
wheel housing to give the wheel flanges more clearance. This produced even
better results than using the axle sleeve, because there isn’t any added
friction.
All of the test were done on an up down ramp with a two plate slope (two plate
difference at each track connection) and eight baseplates in length.
Jon
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