 | | | | | | |
| |
|
http://www.journalinquirer.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16811796&BRD=985&PAG=461&dept_id=161556&rfi=6
Excerpt follows:
Danish-based toy maker Lego Systems Inc. plans to lay off more than 44 percent
of its Enfield work force by early next year, and will close its Enfield
packaging operation, subcontracting all warehousing, packaging, and distribution
work to an international company based in Singapore, Lego officials said today.
Cuts at its headquarters in Denmark will be even larger, with 75 percent of the
1,200 employees there expected to lose their jobs by next year, the company
announced.
Lego also plans to sell all but two of its Enfield buildings, company officials
said.
...
Lego also announced today that it will maintain production of Lego Technic and
Bionicle parts at its headquarters in Billund, Denmark. But even there, "Lego
plans to gradually shift production of products to Flextronics' plants in
eastern Europe, in stages over the next three years, affecting up to 900 of the
1,200 current production jobs in Denmark," according to a statement from Lego
Group Chief Executive Officer Jorgen Vig Knudstorp.
In addition, Flextronics also will take over operations at the Lego factory in
the Czech Republic beginning August, Knudstorp said.
Lego ended all manufacturing at its Enfield plant in 2000, farming that work out
to its plants overseas, leaving only the North American headquarters corporate
functions in Enfield, along with the packing and distribution work that is now
to be ended as well.
Once the layoffs are completed next March, the Enfield work force will total
about 360, according to McNally.
...
Lego also expects to close its existing five distribution centers in Denmark,
Germany, and France by March 2007, he said. Those closings will mean an
additional 213 Lego job cuts, and will leave Lego with only one European
distribution center, in the Czech Republic
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
After I picked my jaw up off the floor, all I can say is WOW. Not quite what I
expected. And it's making me rethink our 'LEGO only store/warehouse' since I
can not see how this can do anything but make things even crazier.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Michael Shiels wrote:
> After I picked my jaw up off the floor, all I can say is WOW. Not quite what I
> expected. And it's making me rethink our 'LEGO only store/warehouse' since I
> can not see how this can do anything but make things even crazier.
I don't know about you, but Lego's business decisions seem to have been a lot
more consistent and rational in the last 2 years, thus opening less
opportunities for amateur traders like me to make a buck. They seem to be
sending the right stock to the right countries, at the right price.
How have things been going for you?
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Will Middelaer wrote:
| |
http://www.journalinquirer.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16811796&BRD=985&PAG=461&deptid=161556&rfi=6
Danish-based toy maker Lego Systems Inc. plans to lay off more than 44 percent
of its Enfield work force by early next year...
|
That’s a big hit for Enfield, a town that enjoyed its close relationship with
TLC. Enfield lost molding in 2000 and now is losing packaging. Soon there will
be just two buildings left.
I grew up in CT, about 13 miles north of “Erector Square” in New Haven where
they created and manufactured Erector Sets and American Flyer trains. A.C.
Gilbert, the company’s founder died when I was a child and in only a few years
American Flyer was gone forever and Erector became a trademark for sale. It was
a terrible loss with out of proportion repercussions. I always thought it was
wonderfula coincidence that only decade later, TLC opened its North American
operations in Enfield, CT, less than an hour away from New Haven.
-Ted
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
As of 9:59 am Pacific Time, this story is on Yahoo's front page.
Paul Sinasohn
LUGNET #115
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Paul Sinasohn wrote:
> As of 9:59 am Pacific Time, this story is on Yahoo's front page.
Wow.
I heard it first on the local talk/news radio station (WTIC 1080 AM) a few
minutes before I dug up the quoted newspaper article. I'd never guess this
would become a national story.
A bit of digging turned up the press release on the Lego.com website.
http://www.lego.com/eng/info/default.asp?page=pressdetail&contentid=20727
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
I'm concerned about all the friends we have in Enfield - I hope they still have
jobs with our favorite company...
JohnG, GMLTC
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
After nine years of working for an international company, I am still amazed that
the "modern" answer to unfavorable business results is practically always job
cuts. They don't seem to teach anything else in management classes anymore (did
they ever?)
You'd guess that "shareholder value" only applies to a stock-trading company,
but not a family-owned like TLC. Well, second guess please...
I'm certainly somewhat disappointed seeing product quality decrease while the
workforce is being reduced or vice versa, leading to the only result that
quality still gets worse, there is no-one left to deal with it, and business
figures reach the floor and start to dig.
The saddest part is, that even _if_ we were able to buy as much LEGO as is
required to improve their business results (and if there were sets worth of
buying in such quantities), management would still see the cost cutting effects
and continue the outsourcing effort - most probably finding two years later that
it was everything but a good idea. I could go ranting about this forever as it
drives me mad to see people who practically lived for their company lose their
jobs like that.
Jerry
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.mediawatch, Will Middelaer wrote:
> http://www.journalinquirer.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16811796&BRD=985&PAG=461&dept_id=161556&rfi=6
>
> Excerpt follows:
>
> Danish-based toy maker Lego Systems Inc. plans to lay off more than 44 percent
> of its Enfield work force by early next year, and will close its Enfield
> packaging operation, subcontracting all warehousing, packaging, and distribution
> work to an international company based in Singapore, Lego officials said today.
Read the news today, oh boy (sorry for such an obvious quote, I could'nt
resist).
Why is anyone suprised by this? Lego has stated for the last 2 years that this
was going to happen.
Here's the thing: I dont think this is the worse news you are going to hear over
the next few years.
Some background history:
Lego was founded and remained in Billund, Denmark. OKC then GKC, and later
Kjeld, operated the international company out of their hometown. They
essentially built the city and the central Jutland region.
Billund became their primary manufacturing and business center. Over time they
added manufacturing facilities in new Western markets. By the 1990's they had
manufacturing and packaging operations in Denmark, Switzerland, Germany, Korea,
Brazil and the US. At the time these made business sense in that they were
located in important sales markets. But in most of these cases they were also
very expensive labor markets (in fact Switzerland IS the most expensive labor
market in the world).
It, then, comes as no suprise, that in order to compete with other toy
manufacturers they have sought out less expensive labor markets. First it was
the Kladno plant in the Czech Republic, but also China. Look closely at where
your Lego sets are manufactured. Primo, Clickits, Galidor, and some Duplo have
always been made in China.
Todays announcement suggests that, like MOST companies, they are getting out the
the toy manufacturing business altogether. By subcontracting the manufacturing
to a 3rd party, Flextronics, they have put the last peice together in something
they have been working on for the last 5 years:
PART II:
Lego is owned by two companies:
Kirkbi Invest AS, with 2 primary shareholders, Kjeld and his sister Gunhild.
Kirkbi owns the intellectual property of Lego and acts as the Lego and Kirk
Kristiansen "bank", and Interlego, which owns Lego A/S and has 4 primary
shareholders, Kjeld and his 3 children.
Over the last several years these companies have divested themselves of many of
their assets. We all know about Interlego selling the Theme parks but Kirkbi has
been quietly divesting itself of most of the companies it owns.
It is also no secret that Kjeld has for some time indicated that he wishes to no
longer sit on the board of Lego or Kirkbi [1], but only remain on the board of
the Lego Foundation, to which he is in the process of selling his shares of the
Lego company (Lego Holding currently holds 25% on the shares of Lego).
So, Kjeld has stated his intention in divesting his interest in Lego. His 3
children, as far as I know, are not involved with the company, and a few years
ago he brought in a new CEO, someone from Finance. Someone to streamline the
operation and make these drastic cuts.
PART III
Kjeld is getting out of the operations of the company. His children are not
taking over. He has divested himself of many of the extraneous components of his
empire. Add to this the final part of divesting the company of any actual
manufacting. What is left is a portfolio of intellectual property (licenses,
patents and trademarks) and an R&D operation.
An attractive package for someone (with alot of money) to buy.
The family is preparing the company for sale.
[1] Do a Lego search on the Copenhagen Post or the Posten-Jyllands newspaper
sites.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Jim Hughes wrote:
> It, then, comes as no suprise, that in order to compete with other toy
> manufacturers they have sought out less expensive labor markets. First it was
> the Kladno plant in the Czech Republic, but also China. Look closely at where
> your Lego sets are manufactured. Primo, Clickits, Galidor, and some Duplo have
> always been made in China.
that will work until the chinese start asking for the same sort of pay and
benefits we have been having for a while.
see for instance apple's 2 months in india.
day 0 : apple announces that they open a huge development center in bangalore un
a big media splash
day 0+2months : apple quietly retracts, arguing that india's growth in the last
2 years has been too large, and that it became too expensive.
at some point in the future, the whole system will crash. that's a given.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Jim Hughes wrote:
> PART II:
>
> Lego is owned by two companies:
>
> Kirkbi Invest AS, with 2 primary shareholders, Kjeld and his sister Gunhild.
> Kirkbi owns the intellectual property of Lego and acts as the Lego and Kirk
> Kristiansen "bank", and Interlego, which owns Lego A/S and has 4 primary
> shareholders, Kjeld and his 3 children.
Very well stated Jim!!
Today we mainly know that KKK is the principal owner of Lego. But his older
sister Gunhild also owns a big chunk of Lego, as Jim has aready stated.
Here's a 1958 picture of them (along with their late younger sister Hanne, who
tragically died in a 1969 car accident) from Dave Shifflett's excellent website:
http://www.redshift.com/~shifflett/lego/700_5/target0.html
Gunhild, pictured in the middle, is approximately 59-60 years old today.
Gary Istok
P.S. This circa 1957-58 photo was used on all Lego Basic Sets from 1958-60.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
> Cuts at its headquarters in Denmark will be even larger, with 75 percent of the
> 1,200 employees there expected to lose their jobs by next year, the company
> announced.
>
> Lego also plans to sell all but two of its Enfield buildings, company officials
> said.
Wow for me, too! 75%!! Good lord! I must confess I've not been following this
development because frankly, I'm more interested in building. I guess what
bothers me most is that Lego, like Pixar and many other companies and/or
entities which I've initially admired and respected, have become diluted and
their individuality compromised. Sometimes it seems like nothing stays pure.
Though I'll always love the brick, it will occasionally sadden me that it's no
longer a family thing.
Dave S.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Will Middelaer wrote:
> http://www.journalinquirer.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16811796&BRD=985&PAG=461&dept_id=161556&rfi=6
>
> Excerpt follows:
>
> Danish-based toy maker Lego Systems Inc. plans to lay off more than 44 percent
> of its Enfield work force by early next year, and will close its Enfield
> packaging operation, subcontracting all warehousing, packaging, and distribution
> work to an international company based in Singapore, Lego officials said today. ...
I blame Galidor.
LFB
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Don't forget Z-Naps part in all this.
John
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Lindsay Frederick Braun wrote:
I blame Bush.
JOHN
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
No it was Sadam, why do you think he is on trial. Or maybe Kennedy, he killed
that woman by driving into a vat of yellow hot melted plastic. That is what
took him so long to report it. Had to get all the yellow off of himself while
holding a bottle of booze, can’t let that break. John
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Patterson wrote:
| |
No it was Sadam, why do you think he is on trial. Or maybe Kennedy, he
killed that woman by driving into a vat of yellow hot melted plastic. That
is what took him so long to report it. Had to get all the yellow off of
himself while holding a bottle of booze, can’t let that break. John
|
Don’t forget--he had to arrange for Vince Foster’s “suicide,” too.
Dave!
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
John wrote:
> In lugnet.mediawatch, Lindsay Frederick Braun wrote:
>
> > I blame Galidor.
>
> I blame Bush.
I blame Canada,
--
Patrick McFarland || www.AdTerrasPerAspera.com
"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids,
we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and
listening to repetitive electronic music." -- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo,
Inc, 1989
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Patrick McFarland wrote:
| |
John wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Lindsay Frederick Braun wrote:
I blame Bush.
|
I blame Canada,
|
They’re not even a real country anyway.
JOHN
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Blaming Canada makes sense. Lego in divesting itself of the manufacture of lego
elements is following the moves of its two competitors in “system” level
elements. Best Lock has ceased manufacturing its semi compatible bricks and now
is the marketing agent for the Cobi company of Poland, which manufactures in
eastern europe. MegaBrands has transfered almost all of its manufacturing and
assembly to the people’s republic. Lego is just the last of the 3 to outsource
manufacture. Lego’s challenge has always been what to do once the patents on
the system expired decades ago. Focusing on design is probably their best
strategy. They have also changed their design parameters....projects must be
ready for the market from conception to distribution in half the time previously
allowed. This has already paid off in the timely reissue of the soccer elements
of their defunct sports line in time for the world cup. And war toys are
invading their line more and more. Star Wars opened the door, but violence is
more and more part of the lego line. Compare their old Spiderman line with the
new Batman line that’s out now with its Glocks, etc.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Marak wrote:
| |
Blaming Canada makes sense.
|
For the record, and I think I speak for Patrick as well-- he nor I were “blaming
Canada”, but simply riffing on the song from the TV show South Park called
“Blame Canada”. My statement was a line from the song.
My “I blame Bush” was a jab at Democrats and lefties, riffing on LFB’s humorous
“I blame Galidor”.
All of this is in fun, not serious analysis:-)
JOHN
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
| |
| |
Blaming Canada makes sense.
|
For the record, and I think I speak for Patrick as well-- he nor I were
“blaming Canada”, but simply riffing on the song from the TV show South Park
called “Blame Canada”. My statement was a line from the song.
|
I call that wiggling. We all know your feelings aboot our neighbor to the
north, to say nothing of its hoser inhabitants, eh? And now you’re trying to
claim that you’re not blaming them? For crying oot lood!
| |
My “I blame Bush” was a jab at Democrats and lefties, riffing on LFB’s
humorous “I blame Galidor”.
|
I would rather see Nick Bluetooth in the Whitehouse, with or without his
interchangeable arms...
Dave!
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
snip
| |
I call that wiggling. We all know your feelings aboot our neighbor to the
north, to say nothing of its hoser inhabitants, eh? And now you’re trying to
claim that you’re not blaming them? For crying oot lood!
|
snip
| |
I would rather see Nick Bluetooth in the Whitehouse, with or without his
interchangeable arms...
Dave!
|
Take off!
All of you are ‘hoser-wannabe’s’
Dave K
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote:
| |
Take off!
All of you are ‘hoser-wannabe’s’
|
Beauty.
JOHN
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote:
>
> > Take off!
> >
> > All of you are 'hoser-wannabe's'
>
>
> Beauty.
>
> [JOHN]
We'll get our 2-4 of beer, some back bacon on the coleman, and enjoy the view
whilst sitting on our muskoka chairs, all the while dreading the upcoming toque
season...
Dave K
-hoser extra-ordinaire...
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote:
| |
Take off!
All of you are ‘hoser-wannabe’s’
|
Beauty.
JOHN
|
We’ll get our 2-4 of beer,
|
I’m with ya...
| |
some back bacon on the coleman,
|
I’m with ya...
| |
and enjoy the view
whilst sitting on our muskoka chairs,
|
I’m still with ya...
| |
all the while dreading the upcoming toque
season...
|
Ya lost me. As a service to the clueless such as I, consulted the Wik:
==
Canadian variant
In Canada, “toque” may also be a misspelling of tuque (IPA /tuk/), a knit
woollen winter hat, originally worn by French-Canadians but now a staple of the
Canadian winter wardrobe. This “fashion” originated when coureurs des bois kept
their woollen nightcaps on for warmth during cold winter days. The Canadian
Oxford Dictionary regards the use of toque for this hat to be assimilated from
the etymologically unrelated French word tuque.
==
I’m back with ya:-)
JOHN
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote:
> >
> > > Take off!
> > >
> > > All of you are 'hoser-wannabe's'
> >
> >
> > Beauty.
> >
> > [JOHN]
>
> We'll get our 2-4 of beer, some back bacon on the coleman, and enjoy the view
> whilst sitting on our muskoka chairs, all the while dreading the upcoming toque
> season...
>
> Dave K
> -hoser extra-ordinaire...
Times that one, two four, by six, add a good cigar or three, and hey you just
described my upcoming weekend plans! Oops, wait you left out the fact that I
will "tippercanoe" in the middle of "leach lake", and fire off a case-load of
overpriced pyro so we can "ohhhh and awwwweee" and then bang off a few handfuls
of cheap ammo to scare the skeeters away. Who needs deet when you have a
semi-auto???
Janey "I love the outdoors, pass me my zippo, Red Brick"
I'd type more, but I need to pre-roll a few, errr, I mean, check what planets
will be in view, yeah thats it!
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
| |
| |
Blaming Canada makes sense.
|
For the record, and I think I speak for Patrick as well-- he nor I were
“blaming Canada”, but simply riffing on the song from the TV show South Park
called “Blame Canada”. My statement was a line from the song.
|
I call that wiggling.
|
You would, Dave! :-)
| |
We all know your feelings aboot our neighbor to the
north, to say nothing of its hoser inhabitants, eh? And now you’re trying to
claim that you’re not blaming them? For crying oot lood!
|
Okay, okay, I admit it-- I blame Canada. But not for the demise of TLG! I
mostly blame them for my own great white northern accent! >:(
| |
| |
My “I blame Bush” was a jab at Democrats and lefties, riffing on LFB’s
humorous “I blame Galidor”.
|
I would rather see Nick Bluetooth in the Whitehouse, with or without his
interchangeable arms...
|
Why not? He’s a kick-ass kind of guy, eh? Might be too young, however...
JOHN
Superman wears Jack Bauer underwear.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
| |
Superman wears Jack Bauer underwear.
|
Uh... What?
Dave!
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
| |
Superman wears Jack Bauer underwear.
|
Uh... What?
|
Not a “24” fan are you, Dave!? (although I admit I
didn’t signal my turn there:-)
JOHN
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.fun, John Neal wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
| |
Superman wears Jack Bauer underwear.
|
Uh... What?
|
Not a “24” fan are you, Dave!? (although I admit I
didn’t signal my turn there:-)
|
I’ll have you know that I’ve seen every hour in first-run since the debut. If
he hadn’t been offed this season, I would have voted for David Palmer in ‘08.
But the Superman connection is eluding me...
Dave!
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.fun, Dave Schuler wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.fun, John Neal wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
| |
Superman wears Jack Bauer underwear.
|
Uh... What?
|
Not a “24” fan are you, Dave!? (although I admit I
didn’t signal my turn there:-)
|
I’ll have you know that I’ve seen every hour in first-run since the debut.
If he hadn’t been offed this season, I would have voted for David Palmer in
‘08.
|
Hey, me too! I actually wrote in Jack Ryan in the ‘96 election:-)
| |
But the Superman connection is eluding me...
|
It was my “kick-ass kind of guy” comment that prompted it.
You know-- little boys wearing pajamas and underwear with their hero Superman
imprinted on them. The implication is that Superman’s hero is Jack Bauer:-)
Back to 24; I’ve seen them all, except not on TV but DVD. I guess I need to go
and see the new Superman as well, but I have been so busy that I haven’t even
been able to take time to go and see The DaVinci Code yet:-p
JOHN
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Marak wrote:
| |
Blaming Canada makes sense.
|
For the record, and I think I speak for Patrick as well-- he nor I were
“blaming Canada”, but simply riffing on the song from the TV show South Park
called “Blame Canada”. My statement was a line from the song.
My “I blame Bush” was a jab at Democrats and lefties, riffing on LFB’s
humorous “I blame Galidor”.
All of this is in fun, not serious analysis:-)
JOHN
|
I blame democrats and lefties too--they didn’t stand up for what’s right and let
Dubya take all of America down the wrong path. They knew better yet, due to
political expediency, kept their mouths shut and let Dubya and the
administration sell off everything to big business interests and political
friends.
The political capital that the US had to do anything right and just in the world
was squandered away for the sake of getting Saddam and ‘spreading democracy’ (or
was it WMD’s--can’t remember). Now Iran and N. Korea’s leaders are laughing any
time the US ‘talks tough’ about restricting nuclear weapons programs. Iraq was
truly an insignificant country on the political map compared to the
aforementioned two countries, yet that’s where the US administration put its
focus.
Well, I stated before this whole thing started--‘Have fun storming the castle!’
Now, of course, we see the repercussions of the unjust ‘storming’ of Iraq.
I’m not John Kerry appreciator, but someone please explain to me how a decorated
Vietnam vet got mangled into looking like he was ‘soft on war’ and a president
and VP that never served and had deferments and even (maybe) went AWOL looked
like soldiers in action.
And now the same people that made that magic act happen are trying to do it to
Rep. Murtha. Well, as Dubya himself said eloquently, “There’s an old saying in
Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me
once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.”
Dave K
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Marak wrote:
| |
Blaming Canada makes sense.
|
For the record, and I think I speak for Patrick as well-- he nor I were
“blaming Canada”, but simply riffing on the song from the TV show South Park
called “Blame Canada”. My statement was a line from the song.
My “I blame Bush” was a jab at Democrats and lefties, riffing on LFB’s
humorous “I blame Galidor”.
All of this is in fun, not serious analysis:-)
JOHN
|
I blame democrats and lefties too--they didn’t stand up for what’s right and
let Dubya take all of America down the wrong path. They knew better yet, due
to political expediency, kept their mouths shut and let Dubya and the
administration sell off everything to big business interests and political
friends.
|
I don’t think so. There was PLENTY of screaming; it’s just that the screaming
didn’t find a sympathetic ear amongst the US GP.
| |
The political capital that the US had to do anything right and just in the
world was squandered away for the sake of getting Saddam and ‘spreading
democracy’ (or was it WMD’s--can’t remember). Now Iran and N. Korea’s
leaders are laughing any time the US ‘talks tough’ about restricting nuclear
weapons programs.
|
I don’t think that they are “laughing”. We proved that we aren’t afraid to take
action, even when the world (for the most part) disagrees. I know SH isn’t
laughing so much....
| |
Iraq was truly an insignificant country on the political
map compared to the aforementioned two countries, yet that’s where the US
administration put its focus.
|
I disagree. With all of its oil, meaning lots of $$$ at the disposal of a
sadistic monster, it was at least as important strategically as Iran. North
Korea is more of a menace to its neighbors (our allies) than to us.
| |
Well, I stated before this whole thing started--‘Have fun storming the
castle!’ Now, of course, we see the repercussions of the unjust ‘storming’ of
Iraq.
|
If you mean “unjust” in the sense that it didn’t have UN approval, then I say
“whatever”. If ever there was a corrupt organization, it is the UN.
| |
I’m not John Kerry appreciator, but someone please explain to me how a
decorated Vietnam vet got mangled into looking like he was ‘soft on war’ and
a president and VP that never served and had deferments and even (maybe) went
AWOL looked like soldiers in action.
|
Because JFK is first and foremost a politician and it showed; he is a human
waffle. His appeal is pretty much limited to his constituents in MA and other
various lefties.
| |
And now the same people that made that magic act happen are trying to do it
to Rep. Murtha.
|
No, Murtha is doing it to himself. His message is simply not resonanting with
the US GP. Period.
| |
Well, as Dubya himself said eloquently, “There’s an old
saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that
says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled
again.”
|
Okay, funny quotation, but ad hominems are low blows-- just ask Bill Clinton.
(see what I mean;-)
JOHN
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Marak wrote:
| |
Blaming Canada makes sense.
|
For the record, and I think I speak for Patrick as well-- he nor I were
“blaming Canada”, but simply riffing on the song from the TV show South Park
called “Blame Canada”. My statement was a line from the song.
My “I blame Bush” was a jab at Democrats and lefties, riffing on LFB’s
humorous “I blame Galidor”.
All of this is in fun, not serious analysis:-)
JOHN
|
I blame democrats and lefties too--they didn’t stand up for what’s right and let
Dubya take all of America down the wrong path. They knew better yet, due to
political expediency, kept their mouths shut and let Dubya and the
administration sell off everything to big business interests and political
friends.
The political capital that the US had to do anything right and just in the world
was squandered away for the sake of getting Saddam and ‘spreading democracy’ (or
was it WMD’s--can’t remember). Now Iran and N. Korea’s leaders are laughing any
time the US ‘talks tough’ about restricting nuclear weapons programs. Iraq was
truly an insignificant country on the political map compared to the
aforementioned two countries, yet that’s where the US administration put its
focus.
Well, I stated before this whole thing started--‘Have fun storming the castle!’
Now, of course, we see the repercussions of the unjust ‘storming’ of Iraq.
I’m not John Kerry appreciator, but someone please explain to me how a decorated
Vietnam vet got mangled into looking like he was ‘soft on war’ and a president
and VP that never served and had deferments and even (maybe) went AWOL looked
like soldiers in action.
And now the same people that made that magic act happen are trying to do it to
Rep. Murtha. Well, as Dubya himself said eloquently, “There’s an old saying in
Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me
once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.”
Dave K
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote:
snip
how’d the double-post happen? I think I clicked the post button once....
The post must’ve been so well written and eloquent that the server deemed to
post it twice!
:)
Dave K
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote:
snip
how’d the double-post happen? I think I clicked the post button once....
The post must’ve been so well written and eloquent that the server deemed to
post it twice!
|
Now you are starting to sound like Dave! Dave! :-)
JOHN
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In China, as well as other third world countries, it’s always easier to deal
with those who ask for more pay, better working conditions, and more rights in
general (witness Tiananmen Square). This method as of now, is politically
unacceptable in the western world.
I for one, would like to see the LEGO Group fail miserably, possibly even go out
of business.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Harvey Henkelman wrote:
| |
I for one, would like to see the LEGO Group fail miserably, possibly even go
out of business.
|
Look, you are entitled to your own opinion, sunshine, but really. That is about
the stupidest comment I’ve read on LUGNET in a while. That is, unless you are
trolling, to which I say, “good one”, because you got me to bite.
JOHN
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
That is rather cold, however I have often thought of that since it costs me
between $5,000 - $10,000 a year just to keep up with the new sets. Being OCD
Obsessive/Compulsive Disorder) I have to get two of everything that comes out.
Then find the new ones from around the world. This has caused me to have
Galidor tons of Znap which I first traded from England (several old train car
sets). They were then sent to TRU and were discounted 70-80%. so 10 of each.
I would hate to see such a fine product no longer available to children
everywhere, as well as us adults and old people. Perhaps Lego will reach a
compromise and scale down production. They have eliminated colors and are
scaling down the number of different elements. I am not sure that moving to
Eastern Europe is a great move as well as manufacting in China. I expect that
telephone orders will now go to operators in India (like Dell tech support and
so many other tech supports.) There has to be a compromise somewhere. Last
year $83 million in profits, divided 4 ways is still a handsome amount. Perhaps
the four owners do not need quite that amount of money. It would probably cost
them $500,000 each to hire back the Enfield employees. Rather sad that money is
more important than peoples lives (thanks new CEO). This whole thing is a bit
confusing and I am not sure how I feel about all this. I love Lego but also
need to eat now that I am retired. My wife has been understanding up to this
point of my complusion. Also several hundred Enfield employees need to eat.
Who knows how this will play out. I was under the impression that it was due to
me, no longer having unlimited Lego funds, that they are laying off all these
folks, maybe not. John P (956)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Patterson wrote:
<snip>
| |
I was under the impression that it was due to me, no longer having
unlimited Lego funds, that they are laying off all these folks, maybe not.
John P (956)
|
Slacker!-- wrecking it for the wrest of us:-)
JOHN
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.mediawatch, John Neal wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Harvey Henkelman wrote:
| |
I for one, would like to see the LEGO Group fail miserably, possibly even go
out of business.
|
Look, you are entitled to your own opinion, sunshine, but really. That is
about the stupidest comment I’ve read on LUGNET in a while. That is, unless
you are trolling, to which I say, “good one”, because you got me to bite.
JOHN
|
I wouldn’t call the comment stupid. I think it comes from a fan who feels let
down and now questions his support of the company that made the decision that
led to his disappontment.
I feel let down too. I don’t want to buy the Lego “brand” by buying bricks
actually made by some other company - really, what would be the difference
between that and buying any other clone brand?
I am sad that Lego is phasing out manufacutring and outsourcing more and more.
I hate the idea of poor people living in sub-standard conditions making a
product for the wealthy living in luxury. I think we tried that experiment
before and it was called slavery then.
So, although I don’t wish Lego to fail, I am no longer going to support their
business model by buying “their”/Flextronics’ products.
--
Thomas Main
thomasmain@charter.net
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Thomas Main wrote:
| |
I feel let down too. I don’t want to buy the Lego “brand” by buying bricks
actually made by some other company - really, what would be the difference
between that and buying any other clone brand?
|
The difference, of course, is that the facade of brand-purism would be torn
down, and fans would finally have to determine whether they’re purists because
it’s LEGO or because it’s made in Enfield. There may be a legitimate issue of
quality involved; if the new made-in-China bricks happen to be of lesser
quality, then purists may contend that there really is no difference between
LEGO and a clone. But if there’s no resulting differnce in quality, then the
notion of brand-purism becomes all the sillier.
Heck, aside from the brand name and the place of manufacture, there’s very
little difference between LEGO and some clones as it is!
| |
I am sad that Lego is phasing out manufacutring and outsourcing more and
more. I hate the idea of poor people living in sub-standard conditions making
a product for the wealthy living in luxury.
|
Isn’t TLG a privately-held company? If so, then what can be the possible
motivation for this move, other than greed? It’s not like they have to bow to
the wishes of their million public shareholders, after all!
| |
I think we tried that experiment
before and it was called slavery then.
|
Well, that might be expanding the argument beyond the current job-cuts, but if
you want to argue that wage-slavery is not, at its root, fundamentally different
from actual slavery, I’m happy to hear your argument (though some here might
accuse you of inciting class warfare).
Dave!
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Thomas Main wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, John Neal wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Harvey Henkelman wrote:
| |
I for one, would like to see the LEGO Group fail miserably, possibly even
go out of business.
|
Look, you are entitled to your own opinion, sunshine, but really. That is
about the stupidest comment I’ve read on LUGNET in a while. That is, unless
you are trolling, to which I say, “good one”, because you got me to bite.
JOHN
|
I wouldn’t call the comment stupid. I think it comes from a fan who feels
let down and now questions his support of the company that made the decision
that led to his disappontment.
I feel let down too. I don’t want to buy the Lego “brand” by buying bricks
actually made by some other company - really, what would be the difference
between that and buying any other clone brand?
I am sad that Lego is phasing out manufacutring and outsourcing more and
more. I hate the idea of poor people living in sub-standard conditions making
a product for the wealthy living in luxury. I think we tried that experiment
before and it was called slavery then.
So, although I don’t wish Lego to fail, I am no longer going to support their
business model by buying “their”/Flextronics’ products.
--
Thomas Main
thomasmain@charter.net
|
I’m sick to death of this equation of manufacturing in poor countries being
eqivalent to slavery/evil/whatever. It is quite possible for a company to employ
people at a good local income in a country where the cost of living is lower and
still save money. There are various reasons why the local costs may be lower
including undervalued currency or other more complex reasons. This isn’t to say
that China does not use wage-slave labour and other policies abhorrent to many
but it isn’t to say that the only reason it is cheaper because of this. In the
case of the Czech Republic any sort of wageslavery would be ILLEGAL and ENFORCED
by European Union law (yes, they are a member) so the argument is total rubbish.
To take an example of how cost saving can be achieved without resulting in
wageslavery consider the farming out of film industry labour to Australia and
New Zealand. No-one would ever argue that either of these countries employs
slave labour (in fact poor Australians and NZers enjoy a better standard of
living than poor USAmericans), particularly not in their film industries and yet
Hollywood could save significant amounts of money by using Aus or NZ workers for
their productions. Why is this? For one thing the Australian and NZ dollars are
typically undervalued due to their susceptibility to the underperforming Asian
marketplace. For another thing the cost of living in both countries is cheap due
to small populations, abundant natural resources and general natural wealth.
Thus they are cheaper.
As I have stated before this immediate jump that China=slave labour is plain and
simple nationalism and protectionism (with a touch of racism thrown in) dressed
up in nice clothing for those who like to think they are otherwise. I call bs.
Tim
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
This recent article on Sweden seemed relevant, though Denmark is compared
somewhat favorably, I still wonder about the jobs numbers.
http://tinyurl.com/h48je
Quotes:
Sweden retained the world’s highest taxes, generous social security systems and
a heavily regulated labor market, which split the economy: Sweden is very good
at producing goods, but not at producing jobs.... Economic growth in Sweden in
the last 25 years has had no correlation at all with labor-market participation.
(In contrast, 1 percent of growth increases the number of jobs by 0.25 percent
in Denmark, 0.5 percent in the United States and 0.6 percent in Spain.)
Amazingly, not a single net job has been created in the private sector in Sweden
since 1950.
...
Johan Norberg is a Swedish writer and a senior fellow at the Centre for the New
Europe, a Brussels-based think-tank. He is the author of several books,
including In Defense of Global Capitalism (2003).
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Timothy Gould wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Thomas Main wrote:
I’m sick to death of this equation of manufacturing in poor countries being
eqivalent to slavery/evil/whatever. It is quite possible for a company to
employ people at a good local income in a country where the cost of living is
lower and still save money. There are various reasons why the local costs may
be lower including undervalued currency or other more complex reasons. This
isn’t to say that China does not use wage-slave labour and other policies
abhorrent to many but it isn’t to say that the only reason it is cheaper
because of this. In the case of the Czech Republic any sort of wageslavery
would be ILLEGAL and ENFORCED by European Union law (yes, they are a member)
so the argument is total rubbish.
|
Fair enough - cost savings can be achieved. If all this new work resulted in
standards of living increasing in the countries the jobs were farmed out to -
wouldn’t the wages then have to rise to compensate? Then what would be the
long-term benefit of a company doing this? Or, more likely, the jobs do not
improve the local economies because the finished product has no relevance to the
place that makes it. It is simply a processing place.
| |
To take an example of how cost saving can be achieved without resulting in
wageslavery consider the farming out of film industry labour to Australia and
New Zealand. No-one would ever argue that either of these countries employs
slave labour (in fact poor Australians and NZers enjoy a better standard of
living than poor USAmericans), particularly not in their film industries and
yet Hollywood could save significant amounts of money by using Aus or NZ
workers for their productions. Why is this? For one thing the Australian and
NZ dollars are typically undervalued due to their susceptibility to the
underperforming Asian marketplace. For another thing the cost of living in
both countries is cheap due to small populations, abundant natural resources
and general natural wealth. Thus they are cheaper.
|
I think there is a moral difference here -- films and toys are luxury
industries. They are farmed out to places where they can be made more cheaply,
but those places already have a subsistence economy without those industries.
Taking people away from the farm or their suffering local economies to make
something for someone else exploits the local workforce while at the same time
keeping them from working for their own subsistence.
| |
As I have stated before this immediate jump that China=slave labour is plain
and simple nationalism and protectionism (with a touch of racism thrown in)
dressed up in nice clothing for those who like to think they are otherwise. I
call bs.
|
The situation in China is bad. There are tons of agricultural workers being
drawn to cities to eek out a living. There is a tiny upper class and the
workers, but virtually no middle class. A middle class is crucial for a
manufacturing economy -- the people making the goods also need to be able to buy
the goods and grow their own economies -- not just process junk for foreign
investing companies (who have no ineterest in the local conditions, after all).
I am sad that Lego is going this route. I am also sad that they are basically
slowly giving up their own manufacturing in favor of outsourcing production. I
just don’t believe a company that doesn’t make anything is worth as much as a
company that does (this goes for countries too -- every country should have some
ag, some manufacturing, and some information tech). Balance.
--
Thomas Main
thomasmain@charter.net
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Thomas Main wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Timothy Gould wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Thomas Main wrote:
I’m sick to death of this equation of manufacturing in poor countries being
eqivalent to slavery/evil/whatever. It is quite possible for a company to
employ people at a good local income in a country where the cost of living
is lower and still save money. There are various reasons why the local costs
may be lower including undervalued currency or other more complex reasons.
This isn’t to say that China does not use wage-slave labour and other
policies abhorrent to many but it isn’t to say that the only reason it is
cheaper because of this. In the case of the Czech Republic any sort of
wageslavery would be ILLEGAL and ENFORCED by European Union law (yes, they
are a member) so the argument is total rubbish.
|
Fair enough - cost savings can be achieved. If all this new work resulted in
standards of living increasing in the countries the jobs were farmed out to -
wouldn’t the wages then have to rise to compensate? Then what would be the
long-term benefit of a company doing this? Or, more likely, the jobs do not
improve the local economies because the finished product has no relevance to
the place that makes it. It is simply a processing place.
|
Yes the wages and costs would rise with time. The extra money generated in the
meanwhile can be used for internal job creation and raising of standards. If the
business costs become too high then the business can move to a new lower cost
location or choose to stay where it is if the increased sales from a globally
improving economy allow it.
| |
| |
To take an example of how cost saving can be achieved without resulting in
wageslavery consider the farming out of film industry labour to Australia
and New Zealand.
|
I think there is a moral difference here -- films and toys are luxury
industries. They are farmed out to places where they can be made more
cheaply, but those places already have a subsistence economy without those
industries. Taking people away from the farm or their suffering local
economies to make something for someone else exploits the local workforce
while at the same time keeping them from working for their own subsistence.
|
I don’t consider it moral to force people into agriculture or subsistence
living. The average quality of life in China is improving. The average quality
of life in the Czech Republic is improving. The reason it is improving is that
there is investment in the countries creating employment and income for the
country and the people within the country.
Furthermore if you are really concerned about damage to the agricultural economy
I would suggest lobbying to have farm subsidies removed in the USA and EU which
do far more harm to developing countries than the jobs created in manufacturing
and industry.
| |
| |
As I have stated before this immediate jump that China=slave labour is plain
and simple nationalism and protectionism (with a touch of racism thrown in)
dressed up in nice clothing for those who like to think they are otherwise.
I call bs.
|
The situation in China is bad. There are tons of agricultural workers being
drawn to cities to eek out a living. There is a tiny upper class and the
workers, but virtually no middle class. A middle class is crucial for a
manufacturing economy -- the people making the goods also need to be able to
buy the goods and grow their own economies -- not just process junk for
foreign investing companies (who have no ineterest in the local conditions,
after all).
|
I don’t know where you get this information but I think you’ll find that there
is a large (and growing) middle class in China. Who do you think internet
companies like Google and mobile telecom companies are targetting? They rely on
a large middle class population to survive. The ultrarich aren’t certainly
keeping Google afloat.
| |
I am sad that Lego is going this route. I am also sad that they are
basically slowly giving up their own manufacturing in favor of outsourcing
production. I just don’t believe a company that doesn’t make anything is
worth as much as a company that does (this goes for countries too -- every
country should have some ag, some manufacturing, and some information tech).
Balance.
--
Thomas Main
thomasmain@charter.net
|
Balance is easy to talk about coming from a country with abundant land and raw
materials. Try balancing in Finland or Switzerland or China. It is sad the
American and Danish people are losing their jobs but I’d rather the money go to
someone who needs it more in China or the Czech Republic.
Tim
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
I don’t know where you get this information but I think you’ll find that
there is a large (and growing) middle class in China. Who do you think
internet companies like Google and mobile telecom companies are targetting?
They rely on a large middle class population to survive. The ultrarich aren’t
certainly keeping Google afloat.
|
Definitely China has a massive and booming middle class. the current generation
of children are called the spoiled ones, because parents in the big cities (by
law) are having only one child and giving them everything they didn’t have while
growing up in the cultural revolution. Summer condos, hang gliding clubs, Tony
Romas are everywhere. the deliberately devalued RMB (their currency) keeps
saleries low and buying power unbelievably high. It is probably a short time
before more lego and mB products are sold in China than any other country.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Thomas Main wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, John Neal wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, Harvey Henkelman wrote:
| |
I for one, would like to see the LEGO Group fail miserably, possibly even
go out of business.
|
Look, you are entitled to your own opinion, sunshine, but really. That is
about the stupidest comment I’ve read on LUGNET in a while. That is, unless
you are trolling, to which I say, “good one”, because you got me to bite.
JOHN
|
I wouldn’t call the comment stupid. I think it comes from a fan who feels
let down and now questions his support of the company that made the decision
that led to his disappontment.
|
The bottom line is that TLG is a business, and they are doing whatever they feel
necessary to remain in business. Some bad business decisions? Perhaps, but to
blame TLG for not having perfect market vision is a little harsh. TLG is an old
school business; unique, in fact. There aren’t any “right answers” to advancing
their business model into the 21st century, except in hindsight. It is too easy
to post in a fangroup as armchair CEOs and criticize-- certainly most of the
pertinent facts are not at our disposal. Rants should be for expressing
frustration out of love for the brick, not out of malice. To me that’s
ignorant, stupid, whatever.
| |
I feel let down too. I don’t want to buy the Lego “brand” by buying bricks
actually made by some other company - really, what would be the difference
between that and buying any other clone brand?
|
I understand that the both of you feel let down. But that is a far cry from
wishing economic disaster upon literally 1,000s of (more) people. I noticed
that you didn’t agree with him; why not;-)
| |
I am sad that Lego is phasing out manufacutring and outsourcing more and
more. I hate the idea of poor people living in sub-standard conditions making
a product for the wealthy living in luxury. I think we tried that experiment
before and it was called slavery then.
|
No, the converse was tried numerous times and it failed (communism). The
current experiment is called capitalism and it is the most successful system
around.
Would you prefer poor people living in sub-standard conditions not working?
Yeah, multi-millionaires live a life of luxury. And they sail around in yachts.
But the fact is that 1,000,000s of people make a decent living
building/serving/catoring to these people.
| |
So, although I don’t wish Lego to fail, I am no longer going to support their
business model by buying “their”/Flextronics’ products.
|
That’s your perogative, and that’s fine by me. But wishing them failure is IMO
malicious and that for which is uncalled;-)
JOHN
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
| |
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Thomas Main wrote:
| |
In lugnet.mediawatch, John Neal wrote:
|
|
| |
| |
I am sad that Lego is phasing out manufacutring and outsourcing more and
more. I hate the idea of poor people living in sub-standard conditions
making a product for the wealthy living in luxury. I think we tried that
experiment before and it was called slavery then.
|
No, the converse was tried numerous times and it failed (communism). The
current experiment is called capitalism and it is the most successful system
around.
Would you prefer poor people living in sub-standard conditions not working?
Yeah, multi-millionaires live a life of luxury. And they sail around in
yachts. But the fact is that 1,000,000s of people make a decent living
building/serving/catoring to these people.
|
Actually, I am glad that they have work, but I would prefer it not processing
raw materials for a foreign company so that people can have toys. There are
other ways they could be productive -- farming, for instance. Or producing
goods that could be utilized within their own economy. Just cheaply processing
goods that move out of their country has no long term gain.
Lego, as well as being a company concerned with improving profits also has a
value system that used to do them proud. Part of that value system led them to
build up their small hometown in Denmark and create an economy for it (not to
mention propelling the economy of their small country as a whole). They seem to
be abandoning those founding values.
--
Thomas Main
thomasmain@charter.net
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Thomas Main wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Thomas Main wrote:
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In lugnet.mediawatch, John Neal wrote:
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I am sad that Lego is phasing out manufacutring and outsourcing more and
more. I hate the idea of poor people living in sub-standard conditions
making a product for the wealthy living in luxury. I think we tried that
experiment before and it was called slavery then.
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There’s a difference: no one is forcing workers in China to go work for these
factories. In fact, the hierarchy in China as far as desirable places to work:
American company
European company
Japan/Korean company (a perceived step down to this level)
Taiwan company
(Mainland) Chinese company
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Would you prefer poor people living in sub-standard conditions not
working? Yeah, multi-millionaires live a life of luxury. And they sail
around in yachts. But the fact is that 1,000,000s of people make a decent
living building/serving/catoring to these people.
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Actually, I am glad that they have work, but I would prefer it not processing
raw materials for a foreign company so that people can have toys. There are
other ways they could be productive -- farming, for instance.
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Mankind has spent its existence making activities, especially farming, more
efficient. When the USA came into existence over 200 years ago, the majority of
the residents were farmers. Today, less than 3% are, yet those 3% can supply
enough food to feed the other 97%. That frees up people to do other things,
like make goods for themselves and others.
The reason farmers in China flock to the big cities looking for work, is the
same as in the US 100 years ago: working in a factory is a better job than being
a farmer. Maybe it’s pay, maybe it’s working conditions, but it’s a better job.
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Or producing
goods that could be utilized within their own economy. Just cheaply
processing goods that move out of their country has no long term gain.
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China has large tariffs on foreign goods. Foreign-made products cost 25-50%
more. Lego, for example: when I was living in China and needed a Lego fix, I
had to pay 25-40% more over the cost of the US price of a set. I remember a
foreign-made box of breakfast cereal was also about 50% higher.
The way around that is to have a facility in China that employs Chinese workers.
It keeps in China a certain percentage of the money you get from a sale, so the
government doesn’t make you pay the tariffs. (If I remember correctly, the same
thing happened here in the US with import car manufacturers, which is why Honda,
Toyota, BMW, etc. have plants here.) Not only that, but because you aren’t
paying transportation costs to import, the product is cheaper inside China.
When I was in China, Best-Lock products were dirt-cheap, much cheaper than here,
because they are made in China. Many companies that are relocating part of
their manufacturing to China, aren’t doing it wholly for cost; they are doing it
to gain wider access (through cheaper prices) to the largest market,
population-wise, in the world.
By working for a higher-paying foreign-run factory, the Chinese worker has more
money to spend; because these products are being made in China, the price is
cheaper. So they ARE producing goods that are utilized within their own
country.
(And because the goods come from a foreign company, the Chinese perceive the
quality to be better; if they can afford to spend money on it, they will. So
while Lego products are currently prohibitively expensive for all but the rich,
with this change, they will become more accessible to the middle-class Chinese.
And yes, there is a middle class in China...not to the extent there is in the US
or Europe yet, but give them time, they’ll get there.)
One more thing I’ve seen people complaining about is a possible lack of quality
by outsourcing. That’s totally up to TLG. There’s a perception that things
made in China are cheap, just because they are made in China; the fact is, you
can get a quality product there if you want it. The problem is that people who
move there for lower-cost manufacturing may also cut costs other ways, by
lowering their tolerances for an acceptable product. If TLG maintains its
standard of quality (probably the main thing that really sets them apart from a
clone), we won’t notice.
(As an example, I had an American co-worker in China who was trying to swing a
deal for his dad’s company. He hooked up with a rep for a factory in China that
sold drill and router bits. The company could supply various qualities of bits.
Top quality was what they supplied to a big-name American tool manufacturer that
usually made their products in America. Next was what they sold to off-brand
American tool companies. The next grade was what they sold domestically. The
differences in grade were based on how tight they set their tolerances on their
manufacturing equipment.)
The bigger concern, in my mind, is what Jim Hughes theorized: that this
outsourcing is a precursor to Kjeld selling off TLG. He indicated at last
year’s Brickfest that Lego would remain in private hands, so we’ll see.
Doug
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Re: LEGO migrating production to Singapore
Harvey Henkelman wrote:
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In China, as well as other third world countries, it’s always easier to deal
with
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Thomas Main wrote:
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I hate the idea of poor people living in sub-standard conditions making
a product for the wealthy living in luxury.
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I’d just like to toss in that Singapore is a first world country, not a third
world country. It’s more urbanized than Tokyo, a heck of a lot cleaner than New
York (where I live), and it has one of the
highest
per capita GDPs in the world. Go visit! It’s a nice place.
Sean
- - -
Sean Kenney
(Very sad to see his friends at TLG go, although glad Jorgen Vig is looking long
term.)
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In lugnet.mediawatch, Harvey Henkelman wrote:
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In China, as well as other third world countries, it’s always easier to deal
with those who ask for more pay, better working conditions, and more rights
in general (witness Tiananmen Square). This method as of now, is
politically unacceptable in the western world.
I for one, would like to see the LEGO Group fail miserably, possibly even go
out of business.
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Presumably you also want to see BL stores go out of business, by placing
huge bogus orders with them? Or
was that just some weird personal vengeance because I don’t agree with your
views on gun ownership or something????
Please climb back into your hole Harvey.
ROSCO
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Harvey Henkelman writes:
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(Murfld) Mr. Crawford
I have been lego-free for the past two and a half years...
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-snip-
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-HRH (Working American White Male who supports the rest of the world with
his taxes)
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And for that, we(1) will be forever grateful .
Cheers
Richie Dulin
(1) I hope I’m not being too presumptious in speaking for the rest of the world
here.
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richie Dulin wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Harvey Henkelman writes:
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-HRH (Working American White Male who supports the rest of the world with
his taxes)
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And for that, we(1) will be forever grateful .
Cheers
Richie Dulin
(1) I hope I’m not being too presumptious in speaking for the rest of the
world here.
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I’m quitting my job now I know Harvey’s on the job supporting everyone. Who do I
send my bills to? The IRS, or directly to Harvey?
Allister
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Harvey wrote some stuff, including:
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I have been lego-free for the past two and a half years, and can actually
manage to save money, while still in the pursuit of a more satisfying
lifestyle.
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Good for you!
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There is more to life than playing with little toys.
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Like playing with little train horns?
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You can ban me and silence me all you want, but given the frequency of my
posts here, as well as my long-since-departed interest in a dying toyline,
that ain’t gonna hurt me much now, is it?
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Why would I want to silence you? Your posts are a source of great amusement to
me, lol.
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-HRH (Working American White Male who supports the rest of the world with
his taxes)
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ROSCO (Wondering just how your taxes support me)
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