 | | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
Has anyone (other than myself) used Python? It's a great language, and has excellent attributes for programming robots (simple, easy to learn, extremely powerful). Not clear what compromises would have to be made to port it to NXT. Here's an example (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) If by port you mean run Python on the NXT, then the answer is probably no. Python would be far too large to fit on the NXT. If you mean could a Pyro “device interface” be created for the NXT (or RCX too) that certainly seems possible. There (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Well, on my Linux box, the main Python interpreter is in a library called 'libpython' with a teeny-tiny main program running the command line version. The library is about a Megabyte - and depends on other stuff from other libraries. This is (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
In fairness, although the NXT has a small amount of memory, you're talking about porting a high level interpreted language like Python to a low-cost embedded platform. For my sins, my day job consists of developing code that must cross compile (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | RE: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) pathetic. On the contrary, the NXT brick has an enormous amount of memory! On the RCX, there's 6K of memory for user programs and datalog in the standard firmware. I can't recall ever seeing a post with a complaint that a NQC program doesn't (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) The size of the flash on the NXT is ridiculously small compared to almost any other consumer-grade embedded systems. Look at cheap digital cameras, PDA's, handheld game systems, thumb drives, MP3 players and cell phones. Name one of them with (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Yes! Easily. I want to load images from a camera and process them in realtime. To do that, I'd like to take a pre-existing image processing library and compile it for the NXT. That could EASILY consume all 256Kb of flash - and the image itself (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) You've brought up the price point several times. If your analysis is correct (example: adding 64MB for a couple bucks), why don't you think LEGO did it? It would seem to me there are three options: 1) Your economic analysis is flawed. 2) LEGO (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Agreed. (...) Actualy, while I've not posted on this, I've certainly come close. A valid argument could be made that this is because I'm not a good programmer, but it's certainly a problem I've encountered. So, I've worked around it. There are (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Another more likely option is that they put the ram and flash ram on the same custom chip as the ARM. Not only would this reduce the parts count, but it would save pinout and simplify the circuit board. (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Benton, In the world of electronics it is typically cheaper to buy what you need off the shelf than it is to create your own custom chip, unless you are going to have extremely high volume sales. When it costs $100,000 or more to fabricate a (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Steve, What you need to do is to make a dongle for your laptop PC with 8G DRAM, a 1 terabyte hard disk, that gives you an infinite number of LEGO NXT compatible motor ports and sensor ports. You will probably have to drill a few technic pin (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Er ... Is there an apples and oranges problem here? You are referring to serial memory devices used for data storage versus broad side FLASH which permits the CPU to execute from it. If the CPU were to be crippled by executing from a SD memory (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Agreed! And if they did come up with a PC in a brick, you'd have to put new batteries in it every few minutes :) JB (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) That's because most people have a reasonable 'feel' for what will fit into the RCX and won't even attempt to fit in something that they can tell just by looking won't come close to fitting. I *KNOW* without looking that I can't do image (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) There is certainly a huge difference - but given that the NXT has RAM and 'broad-side' Flash on-chip, the bulk of the flash only has to function as backing storage...like a disk drive. (...) You can page executable stuff into RAM as needed. (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
Kevin L. Clague wrote: > What you need to do is to make a dongle for your laptop PC > with 8G DRAM, a 1 terabyte hard disk, that gives you an infinite > number of LEGO NXT compatible motor ports and sensor ports. > > You will probably have to drill (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) I think, John, you've finally started us down the right path to (hopefully) put this whole topic to bed. What we're talking about here isn't necessarily a difference between serial FLASH and parallel FLASH. What we're talking about is the (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
What you say below is entirely true, up to a point. Note that most Lego stuff (and this is true outside Lego -- it applies to most controller code I've seen for robotics) is now using bytecode interpreters. The memory advantages far outweigh the CPU (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Ah, I missed that one. No need to make a custom chip if they've already got one- and since it has a sufficient amount of ram and flash on board, there isn't much choice. Unless there are similar chips out there with more? (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Code, may be. But I can easily imagine large data usage in many applications. Example 1: Robot that can play pre-recorded messages. "Danger, Will Robinson!". A robot that can talks base on what it encounters is both fun and help debugging. (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Maybe you could go look and see. Kev (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
What would I like to implement that won't fit in 256K... check out this list of modules from Pyro: # PyroModuleDirectControl # PyroModuleSequencingControl # PyroModuleBehaviorBasedControl # PyroModuleReinforcementLearning # PyroModuleNeuralNetworks (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Steve, no matter how you look at it, adding that greater potential would have increased the price. Not just the $10 or whateva for the memory, but the extra development time needed to integrate it. Hell they could have just included a (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
good analysis. Also keep in mind that Lego sells primarily through retail resellers, so their take is considerably less than the SRP. (Even the Lego stores have huge overhead, being in expensive malls). To sell a product like this at < $250 and make (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Now this is funny. Are you suggesting (A) JB doesn't know much about hardware or (B) JB doesn't know about LEGO's development process? If you select (A) or (B), you should rethink your answer. On Fri, January 13, 2006 1:23 pm, steve wrote: (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Steve, Would you say that the above paragraph is a well thought out, coherent argument? Have you ever actually read a post by John or myself where we claim that LEGO can do no wrong? Or are you simply supposing that because we disagree with (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Dan, Once you get your hands on an NXT I encourage you to try. Sounds like you have considered the costs and it might work. Don't wait for permission from us! Just try it. Often when people say it can't be done, I just consider it a challenge. (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) (speaking out from the peanut gallery) I had a big message going about this, but ROSCO has save me the time to type it. Ditto on all the above. LEGO had a price point they wouldn't budge from. According to the Wired article, more than one of (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) EXACTLY. And my three-month-old cell phone has 4M of memory (which is needs because it has a camera in it), but my not-born-yet NXT will have 256k+64k. Over eight years, most devices have increased in memory capacity by a factor of maybe 100 (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) You are right when you say the link is Bluetooth. With the RCX the link was IR signals. As long as there is some communication protocol (the more standard, the better) extremely complex logic can get into a robot's behavior. With the RCX I was (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Hi Dan, Your desire to have cutting edge robotics computing technology at your fingertips is compelling and *very* understandable. The robotics challenges you want to overcome sound very interesting. Where you and I differ is expecting to be (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Sorry Steve, But, are you saying because ~YOU~ or your group can not imagine it, then is should not or cannot be done? Chris (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Kevin, While I agree with your points regarding cost/features; and I can understand the view of the "need more memory" crowd. I think what needs to be expressed more "eloquently" is the fact that while starting from the ground up, Lego seemed (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Well, let me make my position clear. I want more memory too, and I understand Danny and Steve B. want for more memory too. But you can't get somethin for nuttin'. My initial reaction was "64K !?!? You mean M right? DRAM is cheap!". But LEGO (...) (19 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) I can to. But, I don't think I can force a redesign (to put it mildly). So... how do we fix this problem? I mean, the idea of "only three sensors" didn't last long with the RCX (I generally shun custom hardware, yet regularly use 4 or more (...) (19 years ago, 14-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Chris, I don't believe I've ever taken the stance that I don't want more memory in the NXT. I can't imagine that I'd ever take that position. I'm not opposed to more memory, but I am trying to see, understand and share what little I know about (...) (19 years ago, 14-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
hi Kevin -- I think you missed my point. I accept NXT's limitations. What I'm saying is, we *can* do the sorts of things I outline, with the platform as given, if we get enough developers interested in contributing. I was going to post this anyway, (...) (19 years ago, 14-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) When LEGO are able to sell as many NXTs as Nokia does mobile phones, I'll accept that as a valid comparison. ROSCO (19 years ago, 14-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) There could be other factors... Battery life (I have no idea what more flash would do to the battery life) Space/Size constraints (adding more memory may take up more room inside the NXT brick and/or require more PCB traces etc) Heat/power (...) (19 years ago, 14-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
Don't forget about marketing, packaging, and support costs and profit. And all those little plastic building parts. Though a new NXT will cost you and me $256, it probably only cost LEGO less than $50. So now $8 (I price I saw in this thread) is (...) (19 years ago, 14-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) I imagine (and am hoping) at least one such "hacker" will be included in the developer program recently announced, and hopefully enough info will be made available to get a good start on said software. But even if that doesn't happen, remember (...) (19 years ago, 14-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Any of you guys heard of PBForth?... (19 years ago, 14-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) :) :) :) Brian, I am so..... going to kick you!!!!! :) :) :) (sticks out tounge) :) :) :) Chris (19 years ago, 14-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Gee, you do like hard challenges... (...) Chris, Next time I see him, I'll kick him for you. Of course, I need to watch out, because I think he owes me a kiss from David K... :) Steve (19 years ago, 14-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) I think thats a HUG from Dave, but i negate that hug cause I still wanna smack ya. :) So Dave hugs you, you kick Brian, Geesh, this is getting complex. IF there was some "smack it forward" web page maybe we could work this all out. :) Chris (19 years ago, 14-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Sir, if you hand me a straight line like "code my way out of a paper bag", well... I'm only human ;-). So I've got to give Steve a negated hug while he kicks me? Dang, I'm not sure we can do that within the limits of the standard firmware... (...) (19 years ago, 14-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
Hi Chris, (...) I'd guess at the AT91SAM7S256, the ST type has a lot of stuff that isn't needed (CAN, smartcard interface, HDLC interface) and 16K extra flash which aren't mentioned in the LEGO press release. See (URL) and (URL) Also take a look at (...) (19 years ago, 15-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) The RCX contains a chip that says (c)LEGO, upper right in this picture: (URL) did Lego have to do with the creation of this chip? Does anyone know what kind of chip this is? (I can't read the numbers on it) Trevyn (19 years ago, 15-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re[2]: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
Hello Trevyn, (...) That's the Hitachi H-8 Microcontroller. It is merely silk-screened with the Lego logo, they had nothing at all to do with it's development. (19 years ago, 15-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Re[2]: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) I think it is silk-screened with LEGO logo because it contains a rom masked with firmware downloader. Philo (19 years ago, 15-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
| |
| | Re: Re[2]: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
|
|
(...) Yes, I suspect the same. The ROM mask *is* the custom part of the chip that LEGO can easily define without big expenditures. I noticed that the atmel chip also has a boot ROM that is separate from the flash. If they use that chip we might (...) (19 years ago, 15-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
|
