Subject:
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Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.robotics
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Date:
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Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:59:43 GMT
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Original-From:
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dan miller <danbmil99@STOPSPAMyahoo.com>
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Viewed:
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2162 times
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What would I like to implement that won't fit in 256K...
check out this list of modules from Pyro:
# PyroModuleDirectControl
# PyroModuleSequencingControl
# PyroModuleBehaviorBasedControl
# PyroModuleReinforcementLearning
# PyroModuleNeuralNetworks
# PyroModuleEvolutionaryAlgorithms
# PyroModuleComputerVision
# PyroModuleMapping
# PyroModuleMultirobot
you can dig in here:
http://pyrorobotics.org/?page=PyroCurriculum
Point is, robotics research has gone way beyond line following with a PID.
Roboticists have dealt with underpowered brains for years. Techniques have
been worked out to work around that problem, by linking the robot to a more
powerful brain. That brain is your computer. The link is bluetooth. The
point of Python, Java, C++, Scheme (http://pyrorobotics.org/?page=Gyro), or
any other high-level language (something other than C, which is basically
glorified assembler) is to facilitate the design of complex, flexible
algorithms that can enable more advanced behavior. What I would like to do
with Python, or even with some new language (as I explained in a previous
post), is to get as much autonomous functionality into the NXT as possible,
and make it easy to do the rest on a remote machine. Imagine the robot
having a dozen possible behavior patterns, which could be swapped in quickly
from your laptop, depending on what the robot encounters. It's just an
application of the trendy field of distributed computing.
There's plenty to learn fiddling with lego pieces and RIS (or Labview on
NXT), but if someone wants to move beyond that into some of the real
cutting-edge stuff, it would be nice if there was a path to lead them there.
-dan
--- "Kevin L. Clague" <kevin_clague@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In lugnet.robotics, Benton Jackson wrote:
> > In lugnet.robotics, Brian Davis wrote:
> > >
> > > You've brought up the price point several times. If your analysis is • correct
> > > (example: adding 64MB for a couple bucks), why don't you think LEGO did • it? It
> > > would seem to me there are three options:
> > > 1) Your economic analysis is flawed.
> > > 2) LEGO has other constraints that we either don't know or aren't • considering.
> > > 3) LEGO is run by a bunch of moronic idiots, and they've survived for • the last
> > > several generations on sheer luck.
> >
> > Another more likely option is that they put the ram and flash ram on the • same
> > custom chip as the ARM. Not only would this reduce the parts count, but • it would
> > save pinout and simplify the circuit board.
>
> Benton,
>
> In the world of electronics it is typically cheaper to buy what you need
> off
> the shelf than it is to create your own custom chip, unless you are going
> to
> have extremely high volume sales. When it costs $100,000 or more to
> fabricate a
> custom chip, not including the design, development, simulation and
> verification
> costs which would typically be *much* more, you'd need to sell an awful
> lot of
> those chips to recoup your developement and fabrication costs.
>
> Given the relatively small number of NXTs (versus say PCs using P4
> processors), I'm guess it is not cost effective for LEGO to make their own
> custom chips.
>
> From a manufacturing cost perspective, the more parts you have to
> composite
> together to make an NXT, the more expensive it is per NXT. Fewer parts is
> better.
>
> If they follow the same model they did with the RCX, they probably went
> out
> and designed a system based on what is readily available today, with as
> few
> components as possible and as inexpensive as possible. As Rosco pointed
> out,
> there are at least two models/brands of chips out there that contain ARM7
> CPU,
> 256K flash and 64KRAM. So there would not be any need to make a custom
> chip for
> these features.
>
> Maybe the reason the NXT has what it has for memory is because that was
> what
> LEGO could get while meeting reasonable robotic toy requirements, and
> maximizing
> profit? It sounds like the NXT has great features unparalleled in
> competitor's
> toy robotics offerings IMHO.
>
>
> For Steve, LEGO can't afford to put PC level capabities in a NXT and
> sell the
> set for $250.
>
> My initial reaction to the RAM size was that it was small, and it *is*
> compared to a PC, but notice that a PC has DRAM and the NXT has RAM. This
> might
> be minor sematics, but it might not. Typically a single chip processor
> with
> embedded volative memory contains RAM, not DRAM. DRAM chip manufacturing
> processes are *very* different than the processes used for making
> processors, so
> making an ARM7 with DRAM on the same chip is not really possible. However
> ARM7
> with on chip RAM which can be a simplied name for static RAM or SRAM is
> quite
> doable, and has been done over and over. Unfortunately a bit of memory
> implemented as a static RAM cell is *much* larger than a bit implemented
> in DRAM
> technology.
>
> I digress...... I just can't see how LEGO could make any money
> developing
> their own custom chip, or pack the memory and compute capabiltities of an
> entire
> PC inside an NXT, given the extremely small volumes of NXTs that will be
> sold.
>
> My 2c.
>
> Kev
>
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
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| (...) You are right when you say the link is Bluetooth. With the RCX the link was IR signals. As long as there is some communication protocol (the more standard, the better) extremely complex logic can get into a robot's behavior. With the RCX I was (...) (18 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
| | | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
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| (...) Hi Dan, Your desire to have cutting edge robotics computing technology at your fingertips is compelling and *very* understandable. The robotics challenges you want to overcome sound very interesting. Where you and I differ is expecting to be (...) (18 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Mindstorms NXT programming languages
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| (...) Steve, What you need to do is to make a dongle for your laptop PC with 8G DRAM, a 1 terabyte hard disk, that gives you an infinite number of LEGO NXT compatible motor ports and sensor ports. You will probably have to drill a few technic pin (...) (18 years ago, 13-Jan-06, to lugnet.robotics)
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