 | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Dave Schuler
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| | | (...) Exactly! And evolution is that force! More precisely, where are you getting those figures? It differs markedly from the estimations for number of inhabitable planets in the galaxy, much less the universe. Dave! (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Jon Kozan
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| | | | (...) (It's Friday, so I have time to do this :-)) Evolution is not a force - it's: a) a theory, involving b) random chance Random chance cannot product life. the odds are just too far much. Indeed today's leading edge evolution scientists have (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | (...) Okay, but recognize outright that I was being light-hearted. (...) Which scientists? In this and our previous exhanges you often cite "respected scientists" without naming names. I'd be interested to hear who you're referring to. You likewise (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | (...) What scientific study are you quoting on those odds? (...) Not that I'm aware of. Sources? Bruce (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | (...) 50, (...) the (...) I've started a new thread for this topic... -Jon (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | (...) Prove it (what's that? We've said time and time again you can't prove a negative?) (...) And just EXACTLY where are you getting these odds? Have you calculated them? (...) We didn't even have to come from an INTELLIGENT life form. (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | (...) 50, (...) markedly (...) negative?) (...) the (...) in (...) base (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | | No, just Highly Improbable. But it obviously happened ;-) (...) -- | Tom Stangl, Technical Support Netscape Communications Corp | Please do not associate my personal views with my employer (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | No, evolution didn't happen. As Sherlock Holmes states - or is attributed to have said, "After you eliminate the impossible whatever you are left with, however improbable, must be the answer." I'm not stating that Creation happened (not here, or (...) (23 years ago, 19-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | (...) Sherlock is a fictional character, not a scientist (and I suppose I shouldn't mention Piltdown Man and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle in the same breath). :-O Bruce (23 years ago, 20-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | (...) Way off topic here... I suppose you thought that I believed the SH was real? hardly - Piltdown wasn't either... - But we all know that too. But he was more of a pig than SH :-) -Jon (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | (...) I don't think that there is anything wrong with attributing a pithy and apropos idea to a fictional character... in reality the attribution is to the author. As long as people know that, no harm, no foul. It may not be appropriate to do so for (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | | | How appropriate that you and I had nothing else to do on a Sat evening! -Jon :-O) (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | (...) If it's way off topicn then why do you bring it up? You suppose incorrectly. I was pointing out that you were using a fictional character to attempt to make a scientific point - a character written by the man who may (or maybe not, lotsa (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | (...) Ironic it may be... but what is fundamentally wrong with the statement? ... "After you eliminate the impossible whatever you are left with, however improbable, must be the answer." seems like a reasonable statement, whatever the source, (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | (...) You have to realize the train of thought he is trying to establish. If he can prove evolution impossible, therefore, creationism, however improbable, must be the answer. He may deny that is the point he is trying to make, but note that there (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | Bruce, you have a valid point in the larger context. I just think it's OK to quote fictional characters if there's merit in the thoughts of the author behind them. That's all. And I think it's OK to quote voices in your head too, but I digress. (...) (23 years ago, 22-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | | | (...) Actually no - you presume incorrectly :-) I realize, by now, that I can't convince you of much, but, here and now, my only point is that you should not hang your hat on "evolution" (in it's many definitions) except so-called 'micro-evolution'. (...) (23 years ago, 22-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | (...) Ah - thanks for the clarification. Now I understand. I was quoting "Sherlock" only because Sir ACD via Sherlock made an appropriate statement and I gave him credit. That's all. -Jon (23 years ago, 22-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Dave Low
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| | | | (...) I don't really, so apologies for the brevity of this reply. (...) As Jen Clarke pointed out, there is a theory and there is the phenomenon. The theory could be improved, refined, replaced or debunked, the phenomenon remains real (cf gravity). (...) (23 years ago, 20-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Jon Kozan
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| | | | Evolution is not observable. And to state it again - I'm not attempting to convince you of Creationism here - just that evolution is impossible. You've tried to loop creationism and spirituality back into things - sorry if it appears that that is (...) (23 years ago, 20-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Dave Low
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| | | | | (...) See Larry's post here: (URL) source you quote on abiogenesis doesn't discuss evolution as a force in living things, presumably since it is irrefutable, and eminently observable. He focuses on the least observable, most speculative and most (...) (23 years ago, 20-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | (...) Oh, but that's just MY view of the observations and how they fit together. The serious creationist will easily dismiss the evidence of bacterial evolution by saying "God has changed the bugs in our lifetime to teach us the folly of thinking (...) (23 years ago, 20-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | Perhaps it would be helpful to break apart the different things that are ascribed to the term "evolution." Common usage of the word "evolution" is the idea that living things in our world have come into being through unguided naturalistic processes (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) This is not true, there are creationists that dispute it. SRC for example. (...) I don't think these mechanisms are at all similar, really. (although since the argument is made that we are actually colonies of cooperating organisms who happen (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | | (...) Where? (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | | (...) My new thread does not have Darwinism in it's title - It is: Evolution - Impossible! I acknowledge that it's a bit general in the use of "Evolution" -Jon (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | | (...) Cosmology is the Big Bang theory which is the starting point of evolution. The abiogenesis is evolution. Certainly we can differ on terms, and probably do, but if it helps I'll refer to abiogenesis instead of 'evolution'. -Jon (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) I missed this point the first time. I dispute that this extraordinarily broad definition is "common usage". Common usage covers only points 3 and 4, below. It would be helpful if creationists were clear about what they feel is in dispute. (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | | | (...) Now, I'm a bit confused - you've replied to my post without quoting any of my new material - what are you referring to ?? Is this "question" you're referring to in the above paragraph the question of abiogenesis (my 2.) or what??? (...) (23 years ago, 22-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | (...) The deeper quotes that I left (...) your 2. ++Lar (23 years ago, 22-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | | | (...) Ok -Jon (23 years ago, 22-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | (...) Yes - I haven't looked too far, but can't find anyone who doesn't. (...) Actually I think that the fossile record shows no support for evolution at all and I rather surprised that you would hang your hat on such a discredited bit of evidence. (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | (...) Since it's pretty commonly accepted by most real scientists (not just the mass media, disdain for which I happen to share with you, but I digress), I'll let *you* discredit that fossils represent the remains of animals, that there are various (...) (23 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Jon Kozan
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| | | | | | (...) all (...) evidence. (...) Done - Jon (...) (23 years ago, 22-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | (...) Man's best friend. (23 years ago, 20-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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