Subject:
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Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 21 Jan 2001 04:38:10 GMT
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Viewed:
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1692 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Jon Kozan writes:
> Perhaps it would be helpful to break apart the different things that are
> ascribed to the term "evolution."
>
> Common usage of the word "evolution" is the idea that living things in our
> world have come into being through unguided naturalistic processes
> starting from a primeval mass of subatomic particles and radiation, over
> approximately 20 billion years.
>
> A more precise understanding of the above statement divides the "atoms to
> people" transition into four realms:
>
> 1.Cosmology is the branch of astronomy which deals with the origin and
> formation of the general structure of the universe.
> 2.Abiogenesis refers to first life - the production of living organisms
> from inanimate matter.
> 3.Micro-evolution or speciation refers to populational and species change
> through time. There are many published examples of speciation, if by the
> development of a new "species" we mean the development of a new population of
> individuals which will not breed with the original population to produce
> fertile offspring. Micro-evolution is a scientific fact which no one,
> including creationists, dispute.
This is not true, there are creationists that dispute it. SRC for example.
> 4.Macro-evolution or general evolution refers the progression to more
> complex forms of life. The mechanisms of macro-evolution, including whether or
> not micro-evolution over a long enough time leads to macro-evolution, can be
> regarded as a "research topic".
>
> Lerry has focused on 3. In fact, bacterial resitance is almost similar to you
> or I gaining immunity to a pathogen - I don't typically think I'm evolving
> when that happens.
I don't think these mechanisms are at all similar, really. (although since
the argument is made that we are actually colonies of cooperating organisms
who happen to share common DNA, that immune cells the body produces in
response to a new invader are a kind of new species... but I think there are
enough factors different to invalidate that pathogen immunity is the same as
bacterial evolution)
> My new thread is focused on 2. (and to a lesser degree 1.)
In which case it shouldn't have Darwinism in its title... it has nothing to
do with speciation.
> I hope this helps to focus the debate such that tangents can be avoided.
I think this is a useful division. BUT, I don't think that the "theory of
evolution" has anything whatever to say about points 1 and 2. Certainly
cosmology is rather far afield from speciation without any doubt.
The Miller experiments try to show that some of the theories about how 2 may
have happened are not unreasonable, although they are far short of showing
(and never claimed to try to show) "spontaneous generation" so to speak.
They just show that chemicals can transform and increase in complexity.
That's all.
The creationism I am acquainted with in my sparrings with school boards
insists that 3 doesn't happen and that because it doesn't, that proves that
1 and 2 didn't either. Total lack of understanding of cause and effect.
I don't think SRC accepts 3 as true by any stretch. You're saying you do,
though?
What is your position on 4? The fossil record supports the coming and going
of species. (although since it is merely data, it does nothing to explain
how it works, that's up to us). Without 4 you are either saying the fossil
record is a false record laid down by a creator for whatever reason, or that
creation was not a one time event, but rather that the creator created
species, then removed them and created additional ones, over and over,
millions of times over hundreds of millions of years.
While theologically satisfying, this doesn't help us explain or predict
anything. It's not really anything more than a restatement of "the fossil
record shows species coming and going but we're not sure how it happened"
into "the fossil record shows species coming and going, caused by a
mysterious force beyond our power to comprehend"
Or is there another possibility? I think the "the fossil record doesn't show
the coming and going of species" is pretty thoroughly discredited.
++Lar
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Message has 4 Replies:
 | | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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| (...) Yes - I haven't looked too far, but can't find anyone who doesn't. (...) Actually I think that the fossile record shows no support for evolution at all and I rather surprised that you would hang your hat on such a discredited bit of evidence. (...) (24 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Problems with Christianity and Darwinism
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| Perhaps it would be helpful to break apart the different things that are ascribed to the term "evolution." Common usage of the word "evolution" is the idea that living things in our world have come into being through unguided naturalistic processes (...) (24 years ago, 21-Jan-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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