Subject:
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Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:18:27 GMT
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Viewed:
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2458 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Edward Sanburn writes:
> You can get shot in any country, thank you very much, whether or not
> they have guns, illegal or otherwise. Did you hear of Bosnia, maybe.
> Chechnya (SP?) etc.
Using a country in the middle of ethnic cleansing as a comparison is hardly
flattering. You can get shot in any country, but it's more likely to happen if
you live in the US than say the UK.
> Ah, we have communities over here, Richard, whether you believe it or
> not.
I find it easy to believe, however I would need convincing that anything other
than a minority are part of one.
> Progressive policies like mandatory leave for fathers is funny,
> IMO. But that is another debate.
And one that interests me :) And since we're in .debate anyway.. do you not
think families would benefit from such a scheme? Or is it funny from a
implementation viewpoint?
> that is why most European unemployment
> rates are what, 16-20%. The tax load is between 30-50% at least? You can
> have it.
Isn't that like saying that most tall people stop playing with LEGO ages 16-20,
and they have a 30-50% chance of having blue eyes?
Either way, if the average quality of life is good then regardless of tax rates
I'd rather pay my share of tax. IMPP even up to 100% tax, if ever such a scheme
was workable, which it hasn't quite been yet!
> > History has a habit of demonising or deifying people. You never remember
> > Eric the mundane.. I feel that several centuries of propaganda will make any
> > Big Brother seem awe inspiring.
>
> Deifying people, no. Respecting them is another manner, however.
> Propaganda is used by everyone, everywhere, most of the time.
> Researching them, as I have done, is another matter.
You have me there, as I don't know what you've researched, what your sources
were, and what (if any) biases they contained.
> > The free market isn't always the best tool to use to judge somethings worth.
>
> Yes, but is a lot better than some leftists shoving down idiotic things
> down our throat.
If you open your mouth, then there'll always be someone happy to shove
something down your throat. Be it leftists, rightists, upsidedownists,
introvertists etc.
In a free market what you get shoved down your throat is the largely uneducated
half-thoughts of the masses, reacting to a barrage of advertisements and
enertia.
In that case it would be the marketing suits inspecting your tonsils. That
isn't to say that the masses are stupid, but who has stopped buying from
Nestle? Most people don't even know the reasons for doing so - for the free
market to work efficiently and beneficially it requires perfect information,
which unfortunately isn't encouraged without self-interest in a free-market.
> > > In terms of the cultural literacy programs, I have had enough of those
> > > as well. I have taken all the required ones, and all they are is leftist
> > > propaganda machines. I have never seen such a collection of Marxists,
> > > Communists, Atheists, and Liberals in my life, spouting their views, and
> > > using the classroom to do it. My favorite was Race and Ethnic relations,
> > > good Lord, I spent $500.00 to hear that I was personally responsible for
> > > every illness of minorities. Hogwash.
> >
> > I severely doubt that that was the message, maybe you still have something
> > to learn from that class?
>
> Well, being there and hearing it everyday certainly makes me more aware
> of what happened there than you, sir.
Undoubtably, but statements like: "I have never seen such a collection of
Marxists, Communists, Atheists, and Liberals in my life", made me seriously
wonder what other stereotypes you held close.
> The only thing I needed to learn
> from that class is how politically motivated it was, without any reason
> to teach the problems of race, and was just a front for the Prof. to
> spout his political views. I got to pay for that.
If that is truely all it was then you do have cause to complain.
> Well, Richard, what do you think I need to learn? Your mentality? No thanks.
There is a wisdom in knowing how little you know, and how much you have left to
learn.
But that is in general, and not at all related to the question of my mentality,
which is something you know little or nothing about.
> Freedom of Speech is a lot different if you pay for it yourself.
I strongly disagree! Strongly totally and utterly.
> When
> you start getting money from the US taxpayer, it is different. Making
> idiotic representations like this, plus numerous other examples of NEA
> funding, should not be charged to the taxpayer, which gets offended half
> the time. If you want to make it, I am all for it, don't expect me to
> pay for it.
There's two issues here - should the government fund art, and should government
funded art be censored?
Given that the government DOES fund art, then argue against the funding that as
a seperate issue.
What would be more disturbing was if the government only commissioned works
that were unoffensive and non-demanding.. bland and meaningless. That would
truely be a waste of money, and a sign of an atrophying culture.
> Bitterness in terms of the fallacy of government programs such as the
> NEA. Jealousy? Hmm... I would love the federal boys to pay for my LEGO
> habit, but then I also realize that the government was not set up to do
> that, unlike NEA defenders.
Your LEGO habit gives pleasure to you, art can give pleasure to millions,
there's a difference.
Richard
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Message has 46 Replies:
 | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| (...) It's also hard to compare even the US and the UK, much less Chechnya, Bosnia-Herzegovina or Kosova. But I'd argue that any of those three places in 1990--a better analogue of time--would have been *much* safer than the urban United States. (...) (25 years ago, 11-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| (...) Well, I was just showing that people get shot in many ways. I don't think I know of anyone ever getting shot, in my family, friends, co-workers, etc. It's not like you hear gunshots every where you go or something. (...) That is the funniest (...) (25 years ago, 11-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| (...) Depends where you live in the US! Where I lived in Elkhart, Indiana [1] as a child, it was fairly routine to hear gunshots. Not in the "nicer" parts of town, or in the suburban areas, of course, but certainly where I was. I remember finding a (...) (25 years ago, 11-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| (...) That is true, especially places like Washington, DC, etc. (...) < sarcasm > Isn't there a law against fire arms being within 500 feet of a school? How could such a thing happen? < /sarcasm > I have heard gunshots in Flint, MI, every now and (...) (25 years ago, 11-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| (...) And that is very sad. How should we approach it? Different opinions can swell here, but another debate, yet again... (...) Hmm... it sounded like that. But I digress, I have been called stupid, naive, so many times by leftist elitists that it (...) (25 years ago, 11-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| (...) Ugh, I have had enough of debate for awhile, I have been following it. i am trying to lessen my standpoints every now and then. Scott S. (...) ___...___ Scott E. Sanburn-> ssanburn@cleanweb.net Systems Administrator/CAD Operator-Affiliated (...) (25 years ago, 11-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| (...) That's not what I'm saying at all, my statement above could easily have read "I believe that most people aren't part of such a community". (...) I believe that they get to spend their leave as they wish - some weeks before, some after.. go to (...) (25 years ago, 11-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| (...) I disagree :) As just because Marx described a system that involved 100% tax, it doesn't mean that 100% tax is Marxist. Leaving aside questions of how, if a sustainable Utopia was created that had 100% tax, then why not? In principle I'm (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| (...) Minority as in a small part. Sorry, I thought you were saying minority as in African American, etc. My mistake. (...) Interesting, but I disagree with it, simply because the government enforces it. (...) That would contradict the entire world (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| James, (...) Can you please give me examples on how corporations can take away your freedom, your liberty, your rights, etc.? The government can and does. Scott S. ___...___ Scott E. Sanburn-> ssanburn@cleanweb.net Systems Administrator/CAD (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| Richard, (...) Well, I think money (Which is a form of trading) has been around since the beginning of mankind. If man has nothing to trade with, which is 100% tax, I don't think it would work. I would that would happen, but we will see. (...) Well, (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| (...) No, this tone that corporations have some unwieldy power of the masses is a joke. Tell me what power they have! Does GM go to your house, burst through your door, place you under arrest, and take your possessions? Does AOL pull you over for no (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| Richard Franks wrote in message ... (...) Try the Federalist Papers, there should be links in past posts from this group. (...) care (...) It's (...) Then buy generic. Perhaps those companies that use advertising, and charge 1000% more for their (...) (25 years ago, 14-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| Richard Franks wrote in message ... (...) living (...) picture (...) one a (...) there (...) other is (...) which (...) My POV, the person who has more freedom has a greater ability to have more knowledge concerning freedom. He also has more (...) (25 years ago, 14-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| Richard Franks wrote in message ... (...) processed (...) their (...) them (...) Thanks. Thats reason enough for me to boycott Nestle. There are other chocolatiers, at least there are in America. As it bothers you (and me) that others are being (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: stuff (was: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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| Christopher Weeks wrote in message <3880E975.C4916B4E@e...se.net>... (...) world (...) Baggage, hindrance... Yeah, your right, Chris. (...) While there is the similarity of the desire for a small central government with a limited amount of power in (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: stuff (was: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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| (...) What my parents did have nothing to do what I believed in, thank you very much. I chose for what I think is best. My mom never cared too much for politics, and I have not seen my dad in many years. (...) Well, since you know so much about me, (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <387CF961.42F012A7@c...anweb.net> <FoAIpx.I2u@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) HI James, Governments, corporations, charities, people, etc. will all (in general) take and use as much power (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <387CF961.42F012A7@c...anweb.net> <FoAIpx.I2u@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I would tend to say both are equally valid. However governments have monopoly on the initiation of the use of (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <388320C1.F3E0E6D1@eclipse.net> <FoHr3F.Isu@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) In some ways that might be true. In others, and I think these are more important, corporations would be (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| Richard Franks wrote in message ... (...) think (...) For things done while they were in power, sure. Although I'm not sure how statute of limitations should play in, though the only things which should have a statute of limitations are things for (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <3884AEDA.9C6DA48F@eclipse.net> <FoJMsz.K0p@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I think that if the answer is no, then it will still help, but not as much. Or maybe cause a industry ceo cycle (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <3884AEDA.9C6DA48F@eclipse.net> <FoJnnJ.2xu@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) -- How do you hold a company's officers liable? If company X spills toxic goo -- into a river, who is (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: stuff (was: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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| Christopher Weeks wrote in message <3884B49F.7877B548@e...se.net>... (...) You (...) designated (...) Democratic). (...) Hmm. Most people who I disagree with in real life would not score as Libertarians on that test. In fact I have talked a few into (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <38850672.B6A753EE@eclipse.net> <FoK7Jv.LHr@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I think I'm willing to largely agree that those things will increase also. Paperwork for sure...and that's a (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: stuff (was: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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| 1) Disclaimer: I think Chris and I do agree on most things, I think our trains of thought have crashed or whatever, maybe missed the station? 2) I had to type this twice, as Netscape crashed. Tom S, were are you? (...) Well, I get attacked so much, (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <FoJtsn.C9w@lugnet.com> <38850984.18212589@eclipse.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Mostly that this sort of thing is hard to talk about in the abstract. I think the longer something goes, the (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <38850672.B6A753EE@eclipse.net> <FoK7Jv.LHr@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) One thing - at the point where a liability issue is at hand, the internal processes of the company become (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <3885F82B.31DF@mindspring.com> <FoLIpw.MEu@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) But if you don't ultimately hold the company officers liable, then there is no way to enforce any decision (you (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <3885C764.F1AF855@eclipse.net> <FoLCpu.CzB@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) In many (but not all) cases - yes. (...) OK, I'm in your scenario now. People dying as a result of _anything_ is (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <3885F82B.31DF@mindspring.com> <FoLIpw.MEu@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Until August, I managed ~140 employees in a technical customer service setting. If one of them was rude to a (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <3885F5ED.ABD@mindspring.com> <388625A1.F24912E7@eclipse.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Of course I see the McDonald's coffee issue as one where the system actually for the most part worked. A (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <3884AEDA.9C6DA48F@eclipse.net> <FoJMsz.K0p@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I'd say the answer is yes to both. You don't get to commit a crime, then just change jobs and use that as a (...) (25 years ago, 25-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <3884AC5E.6720F61@voyager.net> <FoJsx8.7Dw@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Oh. Well, I'd say then that most governments today ARE evil. Further, many corporations of today are as well. (...) (25 years ago, 25-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: stuff (was: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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| <FoKHoG.F5A@lugnet.com> <3885D04A.C01401FD@eclipse.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In response to the quiz analysis. Chris is right, to a certain extent it's a marketing tool. It's designed to produce (...) (25 years ago, 25-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <3885F82B.31DF@mindspring.com> <FoLIpw.MEu@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wasn't a 100% fan of Truman but he did have one thing on his desk that pretty much summed it up for me... A sign (...) (25 years ago, 25-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| James Brown wrote in message ... (...) are (...) Boiled (...) contrary, (...) in (...) direction - (...) First off, the CEO is only responsible for the activities of his employees which are reasonably related to their job. If one of your employees (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <388E2A0B.67DF7930@voyager.net> <Fowz19.44A@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (...) Because person X _took_ that responsibility freely. I agree that it wouldn't be fair the law just decided (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <Fox8H5.9D4@lugnet.com> <FoxrLq.Cn8@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) That's basically what I was getting ready to say. (...) No, the courts have the power to try and fine/punish them. I (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| Richard Franks wrote in message ... (...) and (...) The marketplace has the power (or would have the power under Libertopia). (...) I'm not sure if there's a need to directly fine the stockholders. If you whack the company hard enough, the (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| <FoyED8.8A8@lugnet.com> <FoyJxA.Kqw@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) You raise a good point, one which is often raised, and one to which considerable thought has been given. The stock (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| James Brown wrote in message ... (...) the (...) after (...) would (...) I didn't say "is responsible", I said "is probably responsible." In this case, perhaps not, however, anyone having the opportunity to observe that someone is drunk does carry (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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| (...) You can get shot in any country, thank you very much, whether or not they have guns, illegal or otherwise. Did you hear of Bosnia, maybe. Chechnya (SP?) etc. Destroy what? (...) Ah, we have communities over here, Richard, whether you believe (...) (25 years ago, 11-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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