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| (...) You have something against marriage? (...) Well, you obviously don't support the war, so what would you advocate instead? That we all go home tomorrow? Or do you prefer just to sit around and complain about things? (which is your perogative, (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) To you? Yes! (...) I would not have rushed there to start with. (...) Well, given the mess people like YOU got us in, I suppose I'd start by trying to hand over power to Iraqis. I would NOT rig their constitution or setup permanent bases in (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur wrote: <snip> (...) And then we have my personal favourite rendition of 'reinventive history'-- " MR. McCLELLAN: That's all I have to update at this moment. And with that, I'll be glad to go to your (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| (...) Won't work--my family doesn't have a huge stockpile of oil. Nor did you supply me with chemical weapons in the 80's out of a criminally short-sighted sense of expediency. Nor did you all but grant me permission to invade Kuwait just weeks (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| (...) What the doddering old idiot Helen Thomas didn't get was that we are there at the request of the newly established governments of Afganistan and Iraq. McClellan wasn't talking about our initial invasions. Did I mention that Helen Thomas is an (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) What is it that you think we would do with that huge stockpile of oil? Steal it? (...) A lot of countries have them. Not many actually use them. Guns don't kill; people do. (...) Let's face it-- SH was an idiot. The guy read the tea leaves all (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Now it is I who must ask you what on earth are you talking about! (...) So, you'd advocate somehow going back in time and not rushing in. (...) The "mess" meaning liberating the Iraqis from the yoke of dictatorship? The "mess" in helping the (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) By the looks of it, Helen is one of the few who are still asking the tough questions. The rest apear to be 'bauble heads', spreading the propaganda of Dubya. I also think you missed the point where she asked if the 'newly established gov'ts' (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote: <snip> (...) I'm glad to see that revisionist history isn't limited to the US administration. Looks as if John has the bug as well. <snip> (...) Dave K (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| (...) Actually, I don't adhere to that scenerio. I believe he actually was hiding WMDs and their whereabouts is still unknown. But since we haven't found any, I am willing to concede the above scenerio, which would make SH out to be an idiot. It (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) I'd suggest a little humility is in order. (...) ...and replacing it with violent anarchy. That's what I call progress! (...) Hmm. I recall reading that only ~5% of the insurgents were "foreign" and the majority of Iraqis want Bush to pack his (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) SH was not the biggest fool on the world stage. (...) You mean the "scandal" (URL) and abetted> by Washington? Who do you think bought that oil and burned it in their bloated "SUV's"... your countrymen! John, you are being played like a (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) If you humbley say so yourself? ;-) (...) Anarchy? Where are you getting your information? (...) Now I must really question your sources, because what you have just said could not be further from the truth! Virtually all if not all of the (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| Stating something is wrong and *proving* it is wrong are entirely different things, John. I don't like SA's rantings, but I also don't like the bile that often spouts from your fingers into this group. At this point, I call Put Up or Shut Up - if (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| (...) WHAT????? You seem to have conveniently forgotten the war in Iraq was primarily to remove the "threat" of nuclear weapons and the (apparent) harbouring of terrorists, as part of the "war on terrorism". THAT is why Americans (and others) are (...) (19 years ago, 26-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) And not just farce, but expressly known to be false, months before Dubya invaded Iraq unprovoked. Dave! (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) What you seem to have never internalized is that we went into Iraq for one reason, and one reason only-- to depose SH's evil regime. We issued an ultimatum for him leave or we would make him. He didn't, and we did. He was the threat, he was (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Look, even Clinton acknowledged that SH would need to be deposed eventually. Removing him was the bottom line, even without the threat of WMDs. His mere existence was a "green light" in my mind. JOHN (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Please point me to where Resolution 114 mentions Iraqi freedom. That may (possibly, eventually) be a consequence, but it is NOT what Americans are dying for. ROSCO (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) No, there really doesn't seem to be much support in any quarter. And the remaining pro war camp is much quieter and harder to draw (apart from the determined political apologist rearguard, and the shrill cries of the mindless faithful), (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Clinton didn't propose an unprovoked invasion in defiance of the UN, and he didn't endorse the removal of inspectors before their job was done, and he certainly didn't advocate the murder of 100,000 Iraqi civilians. If removing him was the (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Is that a rhetorical question? We are actively engaged in the process of securing a sovereign nation's natural resources for our own benefit, and this is exacerbated by the fact that our hegemonic military presence in that country is intended (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Mmmmm. This green light in your mind that allows you to do awful things with dubious grounds, and with scant care for human life. Not the green light of well thought out, systematically supported, equitable and respected authorisation I think, (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| Snipped bunches. Some I agree with (the venality of leaders everywhere, but certainly in the US) and some I don't (it's not just "about the oil!")... focusing on one bit. (...) What I'm not seeing the current participants in this debate providing is (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Here are a few thoughts--not sure how feasible they are, and some will require greater diplomacy than is currently available to the administration. 1. Get rid of Bush. His handling of this entire debacle has been nightmarishly inept and (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Whoops! 11. Do something about Israel. No, Israel's not 100% wrong in all things, and yes, Palestinians are not without blood on their hands, either. But if we had to pick one thing (other than cultural imperialism (as opposed to militaristic (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) I'm not sure I agree with any of your summary. However, think about this: If I catch you having sex with your cat; do I have to offer you an alternative in order to suggest you stop? Or is up to you to find an alternative? Scott A (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Rubish! If it was agreed he had complied with 1441, he would have been able to stay in power. Anyhow, why start with him whilst training the (URL) Uzbek security forces> and bank-rolling (URL) Israeli belligerence>? (URL) Funded by Washington (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) I thought their Nukes were French? Scott A (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Like (URL) this,> for example. Nice! Dave! (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Wow, that's almost unreadable in a newsreader... Not sure how this looked in the original submission, or how it looks in the web view, but people might want to pay attention to their postings formatting... Frank (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| (...) Hey, I'm not playing to the cheap seats. Looks fine on the web. Dave! (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| (...) BIGOT! <okay, only kidding> (...) My point which I believe Lar picked up on is this: you expressed laments about continued support for the war. So, I asked, what should we do? Leave? You responded by saying we shouldn't have gone in the first (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) As well you shouldn't-- looked natty to me. JOHN (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Correct. Because then we would have been satisfied that he didn't have WMDs at his disposal to possibly provide to terrorists. <snip off-topic material> (...) No, Scott, it is not "clear" by any stretch of the imagination. That is your (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Personally, I prefer pin-up (URL) nose art> It still offends, but has the added bonus of (presumably) tweaking feminists:-) JOHN (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Good try John. As you (and Larry) well know, I said very much more than that. Scott A (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) What WMD's???? But John, what about those poor Iraqis and their thirst for "Freedom"? (...) You need to read Plan of Attack. (...) Even if true, he still posed no threat to the USA(?) (...) Yep, and he got them from Washington. (...) What (...) (19 years ago, 27-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) The ones the UN believed that he hadn't destroyed. (...) What about them? (...) Figures you'd cite someone like Woodward. <yawn> (...) If? That, again, is merely your uninformed opinion. (...) I don't care if he got them from Uranus, it (...) (19 years ago, 28-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) ...based on a case made by the USA. (...) Bush trusted him, why don't you? (...) No John. It is a question directed at you. I shall try again: Can you list any terror acts against the USA which SH sponsored? (...) What is the difference (...) (19 years ago, 28-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) <snipping> (...) Yes. Point? <snip> (...) Who knows? I know he aided and abetted terrorists. Whether they were the actually ones involved in terrorism against the US is anyone's guess. The point is that he was a friend of terrorism and an (...) (19 years ago, 31-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) OK; so you can't list any then. (...) So you're guessing now? (...) No doubt the Uzbeks say the same about the USA. (...) So basically, you spent billions and killed tens of thousands to help Israel hold on to illegally obtained land? (...) (...) (19 years ago, 31-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) It's all a guessing game. We played it safe and took him out for good-- something that should have occured in '91. (...) No doubt we weren't talking about them. Start a new thread. (...) To help Israel so that they wouldn't be forced to defend (...) (19 years ago, 31-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Yeah. Sure. What does a few thousand dead matter. (...) **yawn** (...) Actually John, I was highlighting your rank hypocrisy. Morally, I don’t believe it is correct for you to accuse others of murdering civilians without looking in your own (...) (19 years ago, 31-May-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| I know you are, but what am I? I'm not listening! Lalalalala.... I'm rubber and you're glue, whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you. ...and, the ultimate retort: Nyahh, nyahh, nyahh. Sorry, I just was trying to raise the level of (...) (19 years ago, 1-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| You’ve certainly raised your level of debate. ;) Scott A (...) (19 years ago, 1-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) Translation: "I know you are, but what am I?" -->Bruce<-- No, don't bother to respond, I'm not listening, lalalalalalalalala....... :-) (...) (19 years ago, 1-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| (...) I always found quoting MP was the ultimate retort, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!! WMMV JOHN (19 years ago, 1-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| OK. I shall use mime then: Gotcha! Scott A (...) (19 years ago, 1-Jun-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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