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(...) So, by your "logic", was FDR 135 times worse than OBL? Or were you merely trolling? :-) JOHN (20 years ago, 7-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Did FDR initiate an unprovoked attack upon a sovereign nation? If so, was he inspired to do so because of decades of biased and unbalanced foreign policy, which itself came on the heels of imperialist efforts to usurp the natural resources of (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Did the Nazis ever attack US soil? (...) What about the aftermath of WWI in terms of policies towards Germany as an major instigator of WWII? (...) Can't parse. "For" the US perhaps? (...) lol seems like that we exactly what you were driving (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) John, if this cause justifies the loss in human life, how much more loss would it justify? What if our best guess based on well-rounded intelligence suggested that the only way to have a serious chance of ridding the world of this vermin was (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | What is a sovereign nation ?
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(...) What is a sovereign nation? Is there really such a thing anymore? Everything seems so global these days. Global corporations. Global terrorist organizations. Global special interest groups. The global internet. Nothing much seems rooted to a (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Unless you mean Prescott Bush begetting George HW Bush begetting George W Bush, then I don't think that Nazis did attack US soil. However, they invaded and attacked numerous allies of the US, did they not? Did Iraq likewise engage in invasion (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I think they lobbed a few petulant shells from U-Boats at us, but it is immaterial whether they actually attacked U.S. soil: they declared war on us a few days after the Pearl Harbor attack. (...) You keep piping up with tha line. Bush's (...) (20 years ago, 8-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) (snippage) (...) Please. SH was always a threat to stability in that region-- the first Gulf War was ample proof of that. Again, intelligence was bad WRT WMD but frankly, in a scenario like that it is in our best interests to err on the side (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Help me with the math
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(...) OBL is a religious fanatic, not a political one. He doesn't even represent a sovereign nation. (...) That is exactly what I will tell you. I know that "far more complex" reasons sounds appealing, but honestly, what are they??? He doesn't even (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Chris, your hypothetical is so proposterous that is doesn't merit a response. What your little scenario actually sounds like is the Islamo-fascists' goal: Kill all of the Jews and infidels and impose world-wide sharia. JOHN (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) That has absolutely nothing to do with the point. Bush sold the war on the basis of "WoMD" (Weapons of Mass Destruction for anyone wandering by) and when Bush couldn't find any, he came up with the "bad man" excuse. Bait and switch. (...) That (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I don't agree. He sold the war on the premise that SH was a bad man who possessed WMDs and wouldn't think twice about making those weapons available to our enemies. I never bought the direct threat idea-- just the aid and abett idea. After (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) John Neal -- King of the dodge! He's here all week folks, try the veal. Just in case, and more, for other readers, I'll give it one more shot: Let us imagine for a moment that we came (through whatever means) to believe that Islam had a much (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | (canceled)
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(...) Give it another 50 days or so. Dave! (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) That’s nice, but I notice that you didn’t answer my question. Should anyone in the Dubya adminstration be held accountable for inciting a war based on false and/or culpably erroneous information? And in any case, your honest belief is (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) What? You think you've trapped me with your idiotic scenario??? LOL (...) Imagine? It's already true. But your ridiculous conclusion that the answer to preventing it is to slaughter all Muslims is outrageous! (...) And thus your little science (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I don't think it's possible to trap you. I'm not even sure I know what you mean. (...) Seriously? (...) I appreciate the compliment. (...) OK, now here's what I don't get. Before you said it was beneath you to answer. What gives? (...) Somehow (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Well, you made such a big deal (not to be confused with another type of Big Deal;-) that I was dodging, I thought you actually thought that I was dodging the question. (...) If nothing changes, sure. Generations of Palestinians have grown up (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Look up the quote chain and you'll see I established "immenent use of WoMD". Basically, you are agreeing with me. All you did is weasel in the words "bad man". (...) You accept that lame explanation? You are satisfied with that? A shrug of the (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) <snip> (...) <snip> (...) I wouldn't state that Dubya The Idiot did nothing. He did something--he told all his buddies--remember that many of them didn't, or wouldn't, fly in the preceeding weeks leading up to 9/11. Note that this pre 9/11 (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Help me with the Arithmetic
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(...) Is the opposite not also true? If you think not, read what the Mitchell report says about Israeli schools. Scott A (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | link with Islam?
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(...) What is the link with Islam? I thought the trouble in the ME was due to Israeli nationalism, not Islam. Perhaps you could share your source with us? Scott A (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Are you referring to this op-ed piece cited in : (URL) MSNBC> (also cited in about a bazillion other places) (...) Don't confuse selling us something with not wanting our input into their internal processes. Our "friends" the Saudis are HAPPY (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Actually, I hadn't seen that piece, but I cited a few yesterday with the same sentiments (URL) HERE> (...) Is not the market a two-way street? They should need us as much as we them. (...) And therein lies the rub. Sure, what's the difference (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I believe that the Bush administration believed he had them and could at any time make them available to al-Qaeda. That was the source of the immediacy, not that some attack was imminent. (...) Do you have a better explanation of the (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Well, I believe Australia is also playing a small part in the "war on terror", as well as Iraq. I guess we haven't been as lucky as the US. (URL) well. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, I guess. ROSCO (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) You are counting embassy land as official territory of Australia, and that's fine. (...) Say it with pride, Ross! I salute Australians and their courage to stand up and offer their sons and daughters as sacrifices for the cause of Freedom. The (...) (20 years ago, 9-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) That would be included in what I said. However, there are no WoMD and no Al Qaeda connections. Bush can believe what he wants, but I am saying he should be held accountable for his mistakes. (...) He just released a new claim that America is (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Fair enough. (...) Okay. But I reserve the right to have you eat magpie and admit you were wrrrrr if they turn up in Syria or somewhere:-) (...) Check (URL) this> out. (...) And his triumphs, I presume. Fair enough. (...) Why no video? (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I believe that military intervention was warranted, given Rez 1441 and SH's complete and incomprehensible stupidity about not coming clean WRT WMDs. If you are searching for a smoking idiot, surely it is he! (...) Hmmm. What is your evidence? (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Help me with the math
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(...) I have some comment on the tip of my tongue about what you could be eating in the meantime, but somehow, (hint, it involves the President's last name) I'm not sure I can say that on Lugnet. _ :-0 - Is it still missing, by the way? (Munch's The (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Help me with the math
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(...) I'm usually wrong about how to reason with John, so maybe I should just shut up. But would it make things easier if those of us who think that Bush was seriously negligent in his handling of the intelligence regarding the 9/11 attack admitted (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Help me with the math
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(...) Dubya can't on one hand claim that the UN is irrelevant while on the other hand condemning Saddam for disobeying the UN's resolutions. Additionally, it's not up to Bush to enforce the UN's resolutions; do you propose that the US act as the (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Help me with the math
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(...) John said "Bush is brilliant" and that is what I am arguing about. Not "Clinton is an idiot". John is playing a game: Bush is not responsible for anything that has gone wrong, it's all Somebody Else's Fault. Essentially, he's trying to drag (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Is Bush an idiot? (was: Help me with the math)
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(...) What if his goals are completely opaque to us? What if severing the restrictive ties of international prestige is a goal for the new world order crowd? What if handing an unquenchable mess to a Democrat so that four years later the next step (...) (20 years ago, 10-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Bush would never upset his friends. (...) Well a certain "mordern country" is assiting human rights abuses in countries like Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Yemen & Pakistan whilst breaking internatioanl law itself. What does that have to do with (...) (20 years ago, 14-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Sure. They chose not to overthrow Hussein and install a proper rule-of-law system. Isn't that the same thing? Chris (20 years ago, 14-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Agreed. But can you blame them? They saw what happened to the last revolutionaries (post Gulf War I) that were egged on by Bush Senior, then left twisting in the wind. You can say they should have tried again, and you'd be probably right, but (...) (20 years ago, 14-Sep-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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