Debate : 25192


Off-Topic / Debate / 25192

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Larry Pieniazek

(...) The good word I've always tried to share is that of freedom. Free minds, free markets. The problem is that neither "side"(1) gets it. The Right (that's you, John, and your ilk) wants to take away my personal *rights*. They are busily impinging (...) (20 years ago, 8-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Chris Phillips

(...) Good point, Lar. American politics is not a one-dimensional field, and I did not intend to belittle the parties/movements/ideologies that do not fit neatly into nice little red & blue boxes. As for your head-in-the-sand approach, well, best of (...) (20 years ago, 8-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Larry Pieniazek

(...) It's not that I am doing nothing. I think Bush is going to lose(1), when all is said and done. It's just that the other alternative doesn't excite me much. 1 - if he keeps saying things like this, maybe people will realise he IS saying the (...) (20 years ago, 8-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Mispoke? I'd call it a Freudian slip. :-) -->Bruce<-- (20 years ago, 8-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Chris Phillips

(...) Well I hope you're right that he's going to lose. I would have hoped to see some movement in the polls (for whatever they're worth) but I suppose the real test will be when the fur starts flying at the debates. (...) not even news anymore when (...) (20 years ago, 8-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Ross Crawford

(...) Meanwhile, our political race is neck and neck (so say the "polls") and our election is due to be announced Any Time Now. I really can't get excited about either major party here either. Of course voting is compulsory here. I could vote (...) (20 years ago, 8-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —David Laswell

(...) I'd love to see a return to the tradition of Scandinavian Moots, where before each meeting of the governing body, they had to recite every law from memory. Can't remember them all? Just don't feel like repeating them all before you can move on (...) (20 years ago, 8-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Scott Arthur

(...) Me Me Me. Typical libertarian! I have never said or implied that I want to "tax and regulate till there's nothing left". I do believe that society has a responsibility to provide basic services such as healthcare and education. Does that make (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Yes. You make it sound like a bad thing. :-) I'm not sure that society has any such "responsiblity", I just think it makes for a better society. (...) "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." And just (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —John Neal

(...) IANAEM, butt you are correct;-) JOHN (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) (Getting out red pencil) Incorrect! Wrong pun! Your reply was half-assed (correct pun for a semi-colon). -->Bruce<-- (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —John Neal

(...) That pun, however, doesn't serve as a conjunction, so cut the crap and stopping being so anal. I made some good ones and you wrecked'em. JOHN (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.pun, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Larry Pieniazek

(...) That makes no sense whatever. My wife and I have a difference of opinion about the importance of voting for Kerry, and about how much different Kerry is than the incumbent but choosing to vote one way rather than the other doesn't make it "me (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Dave Schuler

(...) Just for clarity, could we have a solid definition of "Libertarian" here, leaving a minimum of wiggle room? My impression is that the Libertarian tent admits as many variants as does the Democratic or Republican tent. What's the clear (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Why is income tax better than either of: a wealth tax or setting a common earnings per hour rate across the nation and acting as a public work clearinghouse? Chris (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Dave Schuler

(...) I need to plead ignorance and ask for clarification: By "wealth tax" do you mean a tax on acquisitions/already-held holdings separate from income? And does "common earnings per hour rate" mean that everyone would get the same hourly wage (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Oh, I was just making the terms up, for all I know. I guess I should have explicated. (...) Yes. I see it as a sure-fire loop-hole avoidance scheme. If all property is taxed, regardless of who owns it, then the rich -- even when trying to (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Larry Pieniazek

(...) But wouldn't that play havoc with comparative advantage? One hour of Bill Gates's time is worth more than one hour of Paul Krugman's time and forcing them to be the same seems to miss any information the market can transmit to improve (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Dave Schuler

(...) In principle I think this would work for me, as long as we can set up a guarantee against certain individuals legally declaring themselves the tax-free stewards (rather than tax-liable owners) of a multi-billion dollar estate, or something (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) That's how I meant it all along. Sorry for being unclear. You don't have to have people as stewards, though that might foster a philosophic advantage for society, so long as what's taxed is the wealth, regardless of who owns it. For the rest (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Communism. Essentially denies supply and demand. Interesting idea but it didn't seem to work, at least at some levels. (...) "Workhours" unless you are still in the dark ages. :-) -->Bruce<-- (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) To the best of my knowledge -- limited as it is, no system of equitable socialism has been tried on this planet for 500 years since the peak of Hopi civilization. All of the modern communisims that I have read about (and talked to (...) (20 years ago, 10-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) The "some animals are more equal than others" perversion. But that still is minor in relation to trying to enforce a taxi driver and brain surgeon making the same amount (and of course, with tips, the taxt driver won out over years of (...) (20 years ago, 10-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) This is a fairly typically cited flaw with communism. It presumes some stuff that don't jibe with my observations of the real world and I'd be interested to see how you explain them. (Perhaps as annecdotes that don't mean anything, but if so, (...) (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —John Neal

(...) Well, Chris, that's life. Life is unfair. And no amount of social engineering is going to change that. The best we can do is assist our fellow men and they us, and together we will muddle through life the best we can. But what I don't (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Scott Arthur

(...) ...and the cute animal and children's charities win every time. (URL) An example>. Scott A (...) (20 years ago, 10-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —John Neal

(...) Not every time. But the alternative is for me to give $100 for charity to a government, and the government takes $93 of it to sustain its own bureaucracy and $7 gets to the people who will benefit from it. Not very efficient. JOHN (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Scott Arthur

(...) It is if there is no other way to get help to those who need it. Scott A PS Is there really so much bureaucracy in the USA? Bush has a lot to answer for. ;) PSS I'm sure I've heard of chartities with just as much bureaucracy? (...) (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Sure, but the obvious counter to that is that with charities, you can research them and only give to the ones that aren't so bloated. Chris (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —John Neal

(...) But there is. (...) Yes, there is, and I agree! (...) Yes. Ever heard of (URL) the United Way>? There are good charities and bad ones, like everything else. JOHN (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Dave Schuler

(...) And of that $93, $47 goes to big-corporate welfare, $45 goes to big-corporate military (and of that $45, $44 goes to the Friends-Of-Cheney corporate group), and $1 maintains the bureaucracy. Dave! (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Larry Pieniazek

(...) If ONLY we could get a 1:7 ratio between bureaucracy and benefits delivered, I'd put up with the siphoning. But it's hardly ever that good. Sometimes it's 1:7 the other way. Which was the point J was making with his silly made up numbers. Once (...) (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Dave Schuler

(...) Sure, but that's not the entirety of what I've outlined. My example is still a 93:7 ratio of government machinery:benefits delivered. (...) What happens when Badnarik gets in(1)? Will all taxes be wiped away with a stroke of his pen? Obviously (...) (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Life is unfair (was Re: Preaching to the Choir) —Richard Parsons

(...) Mmmmmm. Nary a truer word spoken, or written, or whatever. But that life is unfair is not the nub of it. The issue is 'am I fair?' Am I one who promotes fairness or unfairness? Do I, by action or inaction, seek to reduce the unfairness of life (...) (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Seriously? Have you read "The Road to Serfdom"? I'm just curious. (...) OK, can I run a thought experiment here for a sec? Suppose I'm a brain surgeon and a darn good one. Save lots of lives every day I go in to work. But one day I decide my (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) I haven't. If I was going to take the time to read this or Machinery of Freedom (which I've meant to read forever) which would you suggest? (...) But of course! (...) Digging holes (useful ones, that is) is perfectly honorable work and should (...) (20 years ago, 10-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Do you want a more thorough and scholarly treatment of one particular aspect of this overall question (how best to organize societies), or a broader but less thorough treatment of many aspects? Road to Serfdom focuses on fewer aspects. (...) (20 years ago, 10-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Dave Schuler

(...) This sounds to me like a strong statement in support of Chris' thesis that one person's workhour is not inherently worth more than another's. If my brain is working just fine (let's say that it is), and the brains of my friends and family (...) (20 years ago, 10-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Larry Pieniazek

(...) But suppose you're not? What I'm driving at here is that it is difficult to take worth as stated by the person doing the task... and that further, some activities are indeed worth less. It rather seems to me that even in Chris's scheme he's (...) (20 years ago, 10-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Dave Schuler

(...) In a market-ruled society the same would be true of any essential task that no one wanted to perform. (...) Knowing your preference for "outcome" versus "intent," I would speculate that the years of training are, in the end, irrelevant to your (...) (20 years ago, 10-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Sure, sure... that's the free rider problem. The pat answer solution is to figure out how to price the task into the costs borne by those to whom it is essential. (note: government is the most common, but not only, mechanism for doing that (...) (20 years ago, 10-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Scott Arthur

(...) …and I predict that in 20 years time the technology will be obligatory as it will be used for road pricing! Scott A PS Ubiquitous perhaps. I doubt GPS will ever be a "necessity" as long has humans still drive; I don't even normally carry a map (...) (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Christopher L. Weeks

I actually agree with an awful lot of what Larry says in this thread. But not all of it. And I think he's misread me in a couple of places. I'm not talking about eliminating market mechanisms from the determination of what work can be rewarded. Only (...) (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Well, I tend to remember "shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in 3 generations" and "a fool and his money are soon parted" and not worry about that. That's a pat answer but ... (...) So there's a unit of currency and it's a manhour, then? All else (...) (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) You can give gifts of your time. You can not institute and exchange that values your time more highly than another's. Chris (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Larry Pieniazek

(...) OK. So if I know that it takes the average hole digging person an hour to dig a hole of a certain size, and that's an accepted market value, can I charge 50 minutes to dig it instead of an hour (giving a discount or a gift if you like)? Is (...) (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) There isn't exactly an accepted market value. I'm thinking about this. (...) My first reaction is yes, yes, no. But maybe it really does need to be no, yes, no or it falls apart due to a breach in internal consistency. (...) I think people do (...) (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Frank Filz

"Christopher Weeks" <clweeks@eclipse.net> wrote in message news:I2AH9I.13p2@lugnet.com... (...) not (...) of (...) Tercells (...) Lexus (...) almost (...) never (...) or (...) enough for (...) should (...) to pay (...) a (...) hour (...) Hmm, how (...) (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) I guess your main point is that _some_ services will have greater demand than supply and the free market provides a method of allocation. Off hand (though I'll continue to think about this) I would leave it to the individual suppliers to (...) (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Frank Filz

"Christopher Weeks" <clweeks@eclipse.net> wrote in message news:I2ALon.22wt@lugnet.com... (...) needs a (...) some (...) hour." (...) wants (...) True, that's a lot of it, but not all. He wants to hire the most efficient excavator, because he knows (...) (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) But, standing around flailing with a shovel _is_ useful, otherwise he wouldn't want it done. And in any case, it takes just as much time out of that person's life to perform those diggerly theatrics as it takes for a real excavator to dig for (...) (20 years ago, 11-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Scott Arthur

(...) I agree. Even if "the rich" rent their home, the owner will pass on the tax cost. Taxing the relative value of property also allows more for local markets than a nationwide income tax. Scott A (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —John Neal

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote: (snip) (...) (snip) Off topic, but since proposed legislation is being introduced, I'm wondering how all of the usual suspects here view a consumption tax for the US, as proposed (URL) HERE> No more (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Fair Tax (was: Preaching to the Choir) —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) I read the thumbnail but stopped there. Are services taxed? What about people taking their cash out of the country to spend it? Wouldn't the wealthy merely sock all their extra cash into "used" real estate and further enslave renters? just (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Preaching to the Choir —Scott Arthur

(...) Lighten up. I was making a joke around the common (mis?)conception that libertarians tend to be a tad selfish. I'm not accusing you specifically of anything. But if the shoe fits... (...) It is a small point on which I did not expect a reply. (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)