 | | My Concession (for John mostly) —David Koudys
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| | | The 'Coalition of the willing' is *trying* to 'fight the good fight'--*trying* to stay on the moral high ground. SH, et al, have no such compunction. My point has always been that we don't always follow our ideals when they're "inconvenient". SH, as (...) (21 years ago, 30-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | (...) Along those lines: (URL) opposed getting into this war but now that we're in it I want to win. Unlike some here, I suspect, who would delight in an American defeat. (21 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | (...) That's just being a pro-war accomplice after the fact. Sorry, no previous moral opposition gives anyone moral safety to now just go ahead and support this great evil. No one would delight in american defeat -- that's madness. I presume defeat (...) (21 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | (...) I'm not sure that's true. I think it's more of wanting to take the best next step from wherever you find yourself. Before the violence commenced, Larry thought the best step was not to start the violence. Now, given that we're going to be (...) (21 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Can you cite even one example of where this has happened before? Where else have we bombed people into accepting democracy? True, the absence of precedence doesn't make the occurrence of such a democracy impossible, but I would suggest the (...) (21 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) One (somewhat) recent success story of US inteventionist warfare was the spectacular liberation of Cuba from the evil clutches of Spain. And look how well that turned out! Dave! (21 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) We got Dezi Arnez out of the deal, can't be all bad... (21 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Touche! Can we send them David Hasslehoff and call us even? Dave! (21 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) I think it depends on how you spin the terms democracy and ideal. If you spin them the way I would, I'd say that Germany after WWII is an example. But they had sort of a democracy before. And I don't know about Japanese civics (except the (...) (21 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) I assume that you are discounting the two blaringly obvious examples for a reason? Germany? Japan? The latter we did literally bomb into submission (WoMD, to add some irony). (...) That we have committed this far (foolishly) it would seem a (...) (21 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) However, recent evidence suggests that the emporer was about to surrender, and that you yanks dropped the bomb to show the world your power. (...) Agreed Dave K (...) (21 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Deja vu all over again. IIRC we had this debate already. I forget what the outcome was... but I don't recall that statement coming out a clear winner. (21 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Maybe time to have it again then 8?) (URL) (21 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) I'd say we pretty close to literally bombed Germany into submission also... (...) Whatever the truth is here, it certainly is a case of warring them into submission, and then going in and setting the groundwork for a respected, productive (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Immediately before WW II, was Japan a straight out monarchy, or a constitutional monarchy? I don't think I have ever looked into that precise aspect of world history. If it were a flat out monarchy, then I'd agree that we have at least one or two (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Oh no! Not the "should we have dropped 'the bomb'" debate again?!? No, despite lame attempts at recent revisionism, we had no way to know what Japan intended beyond its action (which were that the war was going to continue to the absolute (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Wrong. (URL) (which were that the war was going to (...) Wrong again. (...) Ah at last something approaching reality! 1 outta 3 aint bad. (...) Whatever you reckon. ROSCO (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) 1: I read the site before I posted, and for that matter I read the site the previous time this came up. You may wish to actually quote the exact passage that you are refering to, since what I read would seem to support me. 2: Unsupported (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) This doesn't sound to me like a country whose intentions "were that the war was going to continue to the absolute bitter end" and Truman had full knowledge of it. --- begin quote --- July 1945 - Japan's peace messages Still, the messages from (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Quite the contrary - see your quoted summary at the bottom. Japan had rejected the conditions of surrender (to whit, none) and the U.S. was under no obligation to pause in the war. In fact, it would have been a betrayal of the American people (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) You asserted that "[japan's intentions] were that the war was going to continue to the absolute bitter end". What has that to do with US obligation to pause? (...) This may be your opinion, but again has nothing to do with your original (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) They didn't accept the call for unconditional surrender, war was continuing. I'm not sure why you aren't getting it, and I'm kinda tired of having to repeat it. (...) Go back to what Dave wrote: "recent evidence suggests that the Emperor was (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Yes, now that I was reminded that this debate was discussed earlier, and that there will probably be no 'official' consensus as to what Truman knew, we can only go by official accounts--Truman didn't know exactly what the emporer said or (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Ross Crawford
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Let me again state your assertion: "we had no way to know what Japan intended beyond its action (which were that the war was going to continue to the absolute bitter end)." 1. We knew *at least* that Hirohito had proposed a peace deal (albeit (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Bruce Schlickbernd
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) *IN RELATION* to what Dave said!!! "Recent evidence suggests that the Emperor was about to surrender." You keep taking it out of context and trying to assert your own argument in there. (...) "...about to surrender"??? Nope. (...) "...about to (...) (21 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —David Koudys
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| | | | | | | | (...) Agreed (...) <snip> (...) I'd like to discuss where Saddam would be if the 'willing' stopped their war now. He's been saying "God is on our side!" and if the willing stop, SH will be, well, I don't know where he'll be, but I feel that it won't (...) (21 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | (...) I agree, but I doubt he'll find the time to justify his argument. Scott A (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Pedro Silva
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| | | | (...) An American defeat is not an option (1); but the victory may be Pyrrhic if this thing goes on through the Summer and/or with an ever increasing rate of casualties - in many ways, that could be even worse than a defeat. :-/ Pedro (1) - Really, (...) (21 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | Re: My Concession (for John mostly) —Bert Waters
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| | | | (...) Larry and Pedro, You both touch a chord, I desperately want this war to be done with. I married, and am raising children in a Quaker home, and I am comfortable with pacifism. Richard Nixon was a Quaker. I am a pragmatist. I want a quick ending (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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