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(...) I have to confess that my WWII knowledge is somewhat less than exhaustive. However, while I don't deny the importance of the US role, it's tricky to say (although Greg has now clarified that he was being sarcastic) that the US "saved" Europe, (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) Russia and Germany were engaged in the greatest land battle in the history of the planet. The scope and devastation of it was truly appalling - it's what ground Germany up. Of course, neither of those two sides was out to "save" Europe, and (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) Yeah, I'm not a big Stalin fan in any case, but it seems likely that goodly chunk of my ancestry was wiped out by his antics in the Ukraine. I hoped the ;^) would be a tip off, but, balancing that against my admission of ignorance, I can see (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) the (...) I'm very suprised (almost shocked!) that you say this? Don't you know how many millions of Russians died during WWII??? [1] 25,568,000!!! These are the highest casualties in the entire war. What Bruce mentions below is also true. (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) Keep this in mind....if Hitler had let his generals run the war they would have won it.They did not want to fight the U.S. OR the U.S.S.R. Also without Hitlers interference the jet plane would have been put into production alot sooner and (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) True but the U.S. could have but IKE agreeded to let the U.S.S.R take Berlin(IKE knew it would have cost alot of lives to take so it was no problem for him if the russians WANTED to take it.IE "glory") (...) Hee True! (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) The only question is how many of these 25 million did Stalin off himself (there should be a smiley here, but it is kind of hard to use one when talking about this kinda of mega-death). (...) That was a political deal. (...) The Soviets had (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) many (...) No comment, I really can't pick a side. He probably was a killer, but he sure did a lot for his country... Much like Hitler... Ooo... That doesn't sound good. ;-) Honestly, I'd love to find a leader who doesn't do horrible things (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) Thereabouts. The true tally can never be known, at least not in *this* life--even your source admits that his three sources (probably Volkogonov, Conquest, and Messenger) vary widely. The reputable sources hover between 20 and 27 million. In (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) exhaustive. (...) many (...) Yeah, it's quite shocking. (...) Yeah, the Russians don't give up very easily. Thank God (and I'm not religious ;-D) they didn't, things could have went differently... (...) Hehe... yeah. ;-) (...) Two million (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) Nah, that's about the figure accepted for war-related mass democide. Stalin's tally is *on top of that*. (...) Now, this is interesting. What's the political deal you heard? I know that the Germans were evacuating soldiers and civilians en (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) General Winter, the finest leader of the Russian Army! Well, him and that Zhukov chap. ;) (...) If Hitler's generals had run the war, Hitler couldn't have been Hitler. What happened was as much doctrine as it was individuals--it's like any (...) (23 years ago, 6-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) I can. The Neutral countries'. We (Portugal and others) managed to keep the population alive and even earning money out of others misery. Our position was very... odd. We lend the Azores to the UK, later the USA - while we were selling (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) LFB Germany was working on the 262 eaaly in the war ..then Hitler told them i want a bomber which delayed work on the fighter(and the fixing of problems)this fact has been stated many times in documentaries that i seen on THC/A&E. (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) I trust the Hitler Channel about as far as I can throw it. ;) This is the same organization that claimed the Goeben and Breslau were battleships, when in fact neither was. They rarely dig far beneath the surface because they have to generalize (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) I really enjoyed the scope of this guy's work: lots of comparison and synthesis, mostly from a global perspective. His fun stuff is neat too -- I particularly liked the alternative history of Moslem Australia. (URL) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) any better an idea than I do who he is? Not having real contact info forces me to double check a lot of his sources as litmus tests, but he's really done a very good job of documentation. best LFB (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) I couldn't find any more informative references to or by him either -- his comments on Ayn Rand's propagandists were sufficient guarantee of reliability for me as a layperson: (URL) (#18) --DaveL (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) There isn't really a side to pick - ruthless totalitarians willing to slay millions. (...) Poor analogy. Better to say, Hitler invades, Milosevic invades, Saddam invades and the U.S. reacts. Despite all justifications, deplorable things (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) Actually, I understood that, but was trying to make the point in a simpler fashion. Alas, I seem to have failed. (...) It was agreed that the British and Americans would not advance on Berlin to make sure the Russians had the "honor" of taking (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) Do you get kicks out of pointing that out? (sarcasm on) Bruce, tell me something I don't know! (...) Serbia... (...) Suuure. ;-) (sarcasm on yet again) Gee wiz, I feel so safe when the U.S. is around. I love it when they solve a problem (i.e. (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) He's a twit. Quoting: The Berlin Wall (1961-89) Berlin: the grim and lonely front line in the Cold War. What exactly happens on the front lines of a non-event? Border guards glare at one another; they patrol the barbed wire perimeter, and (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) "symbolic"? (...) Here [1] it says that 171 people were killed trying to escape. Just checking/correcting facts... I don't really know the exact number or if this source is correct. [1] (URL) (...) Mladen Pejic, over and out! (URL) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China (long forgotten subject!)
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(...) No, you did not. But I must say it doesn't take *a wall* to prevent people from fleeing (see "Iron curtain"), and people got shot and killed while crossing borders in different contexts: before 1974 you could get killed by the portuguese (...) (23 years ago, 7-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China (long forgotten subject!)
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(...) OK, great. So how was this a non event? Wasn't aware that millions of enslaved people was a "non event". (enslaved by the USSR's territorial aggrandisement, by the way, I haven't forgotten I have some stuff to come back to...) He's a twit. (23 years ago, 8-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China (long forgotten subject!)
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(...) Yeh, but note it's a personal call, and he also points out (elsewhere) that "overrated" doesn't mean "unimportant." (...) Dunno, never met the guy. LFB (23 years ago, 8-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) The initial plan had been to drop one on a relatively untouched German city, which was questionable to some--a question that conveniently vanished in May of 1945. There was also some concern over "why couldn't the bomb have been demonstrated (...) (23 years ago, 8-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China (long forgotten subject!)
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(...) Which is a dodge. The way that little ditty is written, he is clearly trying to minimise or whitewash what was going on. Comparing it to the US/Canada border??? Come ON! (...) Sometimes you don't need to meet someone in person to tell what (...) (23 years ago, 8-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Bummer of the Week: LEGO Made in China
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(...) [snip] (...) Serbia... (...) [more snip] I need a little reminding as to who, what, or where was specifically invaded by Milosevic (or indeed, by Yugoslavia at all) that required a US reaction of bombing, invasion, and dismemberment. (...) (23 years ago, 8-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Invasion
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Constantine Hannaher writes: (snipped) (...) Try "Slavonia", in Eastern Croatia. I think it was invaded by the army of the Yugoslav Federation in 1991. And the US did not *want* to invade Yugoslavia because the cost in (...) (23 years ago, 8-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Invasion
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The destruction of Vukovar, yes. See, I really did need reminding. There was the shelling of Dubrovnik, too. But it is casting a bit far back to explain the reaction of 1999. Croatia's unilateral secession had yet to be recognized at the time of (...) (23 years ago, 9-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Invasion
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(...) To be accurate, and correcting myself, that was not really an "invasion", it was more like a "refuse to leave": those military units were manned essentially by serbs but were based on Croatia. Hard to define as a situation... but easy to read (...) (23 years ago, 9-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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