Subject:
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Re: Are we doing the right thing?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 2 Sep 2001 16:31:08 GMT
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Viewed:
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798 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Shiri Dori writes:
> > They're just people.
>
> Which is so hard to remember sometimes. But they are. I try to remember that
> but by god, it's very difficult for me to do when a bomb explodes ten feet
> from where my sister used to work, killing 14 people.
At some point, I wonder why people don't leave dangerous places.
> Not to be nasty or some'n, but Chris, it's really easy for you (and everyone
> else in the world too) to say all that, sitting in your couch watching the
> news. Harder for me to truly believe it, having to ride the bus, and my sis
> worrying about me going to the mall to meet some friends.
That's not nasty at all. I expect you to have a fascinating perspective on the
issue. But don't believe for a second that it's an entirely easy thing for me
to say. I think as recently as four years ago I would have refused to call
them people because that term means folks who don't blow other folks up. Part
of me still wants to think that, but I'm now opperating under the assumption
that it's more useful to assume I have more in common with them than not.
> By the same token, so as not to be a hypocrite, somewhere in my mind I know
> it's even harder for the man in Gaza hearing the news about Abu-Ali (umm, I
> think that's his name, I was tired when I read the news), who doesn't have
> enough food to feed his kids, etc. But even though I *know* that I can't
> really *feel* it. Does that make sense?
Sure. Really, one of the attributes that I think defines people from the other
beasts is the ability to imagine oneself in the circumstances of another. The
more we are able to do that, the more we will be able to understand and seek
peace.
> > I don't
> > doubt there are enough folks out there who'd like to spit some nukes, that
> > they could get a mutual admiration society together after the fact.
>
> hmm? please rephrase.
I just meant that a sense of propriety or ethic isn't the sole reason that some
people wouldn't celebrate the nukeing of a US city. It's survival and
seemliness too.
> > Couldn't war (just like domestic crime) be averted by working to make their • lot
> > better?
>
> You mean "their lives a lot better"? Maybe, in theory. I would like to think
> so. But not neccessarily.
Actually, I meant their "lot in life." Their station or position, including
the degree to which they can seek personal and societal satisfaction.
> In the Israel-Palestine sense, Israel tried to start making the Palestinians
> lives better, or at least to start fulfilling part of their wishes, with the
> Oslo agreement. They got a pretty cold slap in the face.
But weren't some Palestinians willing to play ball?
> And anyhow, many
> palestinians (maybe just the extremists, maybe not) want to kill us *all*,
> so how would making their life better help? They've stated this time and
> again.
I'm sure that makes it harder for you to want to improve their situation. But
_why_ do they want you dead? And who should do what about it?
More generally, what should the role of religion and superstition be in the
legislation of morality, domestic policy, and foreign affairs?
I think it's 'evil' for them to want you dead just because of genetic
hapenstance and some bizarre cultish dictum of hatred. But I don't think it's
'evil' if they want you dead because Israel is systematically preventing
Palestinians from being happy. How do we know which it is?
And what about evil stuff that your side does? Without understanding the whole
situation between Israel and Palestine, I tend to think the Jewish attachment
to routine infant circumcision is more evil than the uncooperative nature of
the Palistinians. At least they're trying to better their lot (even if it is
probably a foolish approach).
Or evil that any nation does...I'm not picking on Israel and Palestine, the US
has a sordid laundry list of evil too.
> > Are Israel and Palestine in conflict _really_ because of the Holy Land, or is
> > it because there are two few of whatever resources to go around? Why not • step
> > in with a method of better each group's lot without taking (much) from the
> > other?
>
> Umm, the middle people on the political spectrum and the politicians may not
> be in conflict over the holy land, but the extremists sure as hell are.
But why? There is something deep that is a root cause. And if not, then maybe
the middle of the roaders from both sides should get together and agree to
commit the extremists in insane assylums where their ability to do harm would
be minimized.
> > The extremists give the rest of you a bad name. On the other hand, I also
> > think that if you're not kind of radical it's because you're not paying
> > attention.
>
> Hmm. I'm assuming you mean "not *any* kind of radical"? I disagree. People
> can be in the middle of the spectrum because they believe in it... I think.
Actually I meant substantially off from the norm, but not neccessarily the most
radical that one could imagine. I consider myself radical. But among
radicals, I'm moderate.
> > I disagree. Any people should use whatever methods they have at their • disposal
> > to secure a fair measure of life. To do less is to accept slavery. If their
> > only recourse is terrorism, then their neighbors damn well need to help solve
> > their problems (or snuff them).
>
> <grin> which is better IYO?
I certainly think that when a group can afford to help their neighbors, that's
the course to take. If it's just not possible, and the neighbors are
dangerous, then you just don't have much choice. But when it gets like that,
it just really sucks. And I bet it's more rare than most people acknowledge.
Chris
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Are we doing the right thing?
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| (...) Don't you, though? It's really cool. He has tons to say. (...) (Not to go off to a tangent, but that's why I had so much fun in my American Studies class, a combination of English and U.S. History... they were two seperate classes but the (...) (23 years ago, 2-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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