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(...) I think the "being necessary to the security of a free state" part covers that. [...] (...) As long as democratic institutions are still working then it isn't time for a revolution. But when the right to vote gets taken away (e.g. an election (...) (22 years ago, 20-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Those stupid liberal judges are at it again!
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(...) You're right. One should try and change things from within the system. This is why those who don't agree with the current government and truly care about our nation are trying to work within the system. The purpose of enabling the free (...) (22 years ago, 20-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Those stupid liberal judges are at it again!
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(...) It should be noted that the 2nd amendment itself in no way addresses that its purpose is for the overthrow of the government or as a hedge against tyranny. (...) The "well-regulated militia" that opted to go its own way was the Confederate (...) (22 years ago, 20-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It depends what you mean by "fight". If it means oppose through force of arms, then you are correct. Obviously. If you mean only an armed population can rid themselves of a totalitarian regime, then I think you are wrong. Look at the (...) (22 years ago, 20-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I don't have a lot to contribute to this debate, but this idea is invariably introduced at some point, and it needs careful examination. The problem with the statistic you've cited is that it is *very* difficult to establish a causative (...) (22 years ago, 20-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The United States is a democratic republic. Fine, no problem--never said it wasn't--I said the way to get things changed is thru democracy, the process in which the people *vote*. (...) "Government is not reason and it is not eloquence. It is (...) (22 years ago, 20-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It's a Democratic Republic. There is a difference. (...) This is such a lame statement it barely merits response, I just wanted to call it to your attention. It's just as bad as: "America: love it or leave it." Too lame. (...) This is a fairly (...) (22 years ago, 20-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Like the Taliban controlled Afganistan for example. Never mind that the whole point of the MILITARY and POLICE carring guns openly was to make sure that the citizens were unarmed and in fear for their lives. There is a reason that the 3 (...) (22 years ago, 20-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And in a fledging new democratic country, I can see why you would need that kind of ammendment. However, 1776 was a very long time ago. It's 2002. Your country has grown up into democracy and found out that--well looky that--it works without (...) (22 years ago, 20-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Quoteth Dave (...) and (...) and so many other locations--which part in my posting makes you think that *I* think the 2nd was written less than 20 years ago. If there's someone being misrepresented in this thread, I'm your guy. (...) And (...) (22 years ago, 20-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Let me say it again, but more concisely: Only an armed population can fight back against a totalitarian regime. The 2nd amendment is meant to allow the population to be armed for just this reason. Yes, if democracy failed and a totalitarian regime (...) (22 years ago, 20-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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David: What William has stated is more or less the reasoning behind the 2nd Amendment, but it also goes back to feudal times. Freemen bear arms -- it's a right and a responsibility. Read "The Federalist Papers". If you disagree, fine. Just stop (...) (22 years ago, 20-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) If the US gov't were to break down, laws are irrelevant, and we're back to... who said it, Lock, Hobbes? can't remember polisci 101 (such a long time ago)...'natural law' or, as I like to think of it, 'He who has the biggest stick, rules' The (...) (22 years ago, 19-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) :) (...) Show me. Show me how people dying needlessly is a good thing. Show me how a revolution would make the United States of America better right now. Show me how not working within the system that you have set up down there, a system, I (...) (22 years ago, 19-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Huh? Guns are not drugs. Drugs are only one aspect to crime. And crime has nothing to do with freedom. Do you think banning guns will make criminals turn in their weapons? No way. There will always be some guns in the country, and there's (...) (22 years ago, 19-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The US Constitution is designed to ensure a reasonably fair government that doesn't have too much power over the people. But if that were to break down, the 2nd Amendment is there to provide the people a last- ditch method of regaining the (...) (22 years ago, 19-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Nowhere in my postings did I *ever* imply that. I will reiterate--it is *not* because of the guns the police officers have, but because it's the law, that I obey the law. You are putting the emphasis on the wrong part of the equation. I don't (...) (22 years ago, 19-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) "The rules have changed. True power is held by the person who possesses the largest bookshelf, not gun cabinet or wallet." (...) Have you been watching Fox News again? ;) The average American is seven times more likely to be murdered than (...) (22 years ago, 19-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys writes: <snip> (...) <snip> *cough* POA *cough* Baah--stupid acronyms! AFAIC, and IMHO, who needs 'em! Just causes lots of snafu's! ;) Dave K (22 years ago, 19-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yup. A very valuable one. (...) I'm guessing you're being sarcastic, but if not, then we agree. The pinnacle of civilization _is_ the understanding the the power (all of it...the ultimate power of military projection as well as the power of (...) (22 years ago, 19-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The kind who is an authority apologist. The same kind as Scott Arthur when he says the very same thing. I don't care how much you want to dress it up; what you are implying is that you would follow laws that demand unjust or immoral action (...) (22 years ago, 19-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Averages and Capitalism (was Re: Those stupid liberal judges are at it again!)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd writes: <snip> (...) Again, in a perect world, this would work, but, as todays newspaper headlines tell us, and as numbers are crunched, we see the gulf between the richest of us and the poorest of us (...) (22 years ago, 19-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Quoteth Dave K (quoting dictionary): goon: a thug hired to commit acts of violence or intimidation (usually with a gun) The last time the NRA won some sort of whatever, there was numerous newsclips of Heston holding up a gun, saying 'outta my (...) (22 years ago, 19-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What exactly does this mean? I happen to think that owning, knowing how to operate, and keeping weapons in good functioning order is a predicate to a free society -- yes, including and particularly, guns. It may be trite but: freemen bear (...) (22 years ago, 19-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) My attitude makes me sound like a goon? What kind of goon? A gun toting yahoo goon? You're right--there's no way to say this nicely--anyone who believes the brainless rhetoric that the NRA and Heston spout out of their mouths--'Outta my cold (...) (22 years ago, 19-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Obeying the law as a general policy doesn't preclude civil disobedience to unjust laws. It needn't be all-or-nothing. (...) For me it's not the guns so much as the ticket books and handcuffs. :-) Actually, I obey most laws just because they (...) (22 years ago, 18-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tribute to Sept 11, 2001
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(...) I did contemplate it, however traffic in .oregon looked a little low. As it turned out, our 5 days in Oregon were pretty well planned out for us - with group visits to OMSI, the Zoo(!), a jet boat ride on the Willamette River, wine tasting, (...) (22 years ago, 18-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Averages and Capitalism (was Re: Those stupid liberal judges are at it again!)
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(...) Well, *obviously* they were savages. Actually, that factoid rings a bell, but I can't place it; I'm likewise interested in a confirmation. Dave! (22 years ago, 18-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Averages and Capitalism (was Re: Those stupid liberal judges are at it again!)
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I actually think that everything Bruce wrote was spot on. Here's a couple snipets about which I want to comment. (...) Yup. Communal living is cool. It has been claimed to me that 40,000 Hopi lived under a single socialist government. Anyone know (...) (22 years ago, 18-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No he doesn't! He's a namby pamby anti-gun leftist. :-) (...) Yes it is. (...) What if the system doesn't allow reform? (...) The US is founded on the notion that recurring revolutions _will_ be needed. And I don't see how a revolution (...) (22 years ago, 18-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Since the notion of "God" is absurd why should he or anyone be encouraged to speak of it at all? And how can you claim that God isn't an artifact of a particular religion? Does God mean Hera and Zeus? (...) We haven't been blessed. The very (...) (22 years ago, 17-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You are plainly false. The state does operate essentially mandatory concentration camps for children in which statist and religious propaganda are administered to the inmates. Technically those inmates do have the right to not participate in (...) (22 years ago, 17-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No! Mike is exactly right. (...) I can't say this nicely, so I'll just say it. That attitude makes you sound like a goon. So things are made right merely by being law? Like when it was legal to own people of recent African decent? When my (...) (22 years ago, 17-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: TJ acknowledged a Creator in DoI (was: Re: Those stupid liberal judges are at it again!
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(...) No, but it helps ;-) --Bill. (22 years ago, 17-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tribute to Sept 11, 2001
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(...) You were in Portland and didn't look any of us up? Frank (Living in Portland now) (22 years ago, 16-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Prey for Salivation!
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(URL) what you like about the Libertarian party, but they won't endorse spitters! Kidding aside, I applaud their censure of this boor as a means of demonstrating that The Party of Principle does not endorse personal assault as a means of political (...) (22 years ago, 16-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tribute to Sept 11, 2001
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(...) It's exactly what the American Public wants. You have to remember that the Americans you are used to debating on Lugnet have, on the average, an IQ about fifty points higher than that of the general American Public (and about 70 points higher (...) (22 years ago, 16-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tribute to Sept 11, 2001
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I spent the last week or so working in NW USA. During my time there I spent some time with a few of the people I met mulling over the events of the previous year, and what the future may hold. On the morning of Sept 11 I took time out to attend a (...) (22 years ago, 16-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Poll tax! (was: Those stupid liberal judges are at it again!)
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(...) The real UK Poll tax was a very long time ago - perhaps 100's of years ago(?). In the 80's Thatcher introduced a tax for which she intended to use the electoral role to set up the database of payees - this became known as the “poll tax” as (...) (22 years ago, 16-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Averages and Capitalism (was Re: Those stupid liberal judges are at it again!)
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(...) Indeed, but I'm not comparing the US to China, nor the US or China to a world average - I'm merely comparing people to the average within their own system. My statment was "as one gets closer and closer to a pure capitalist system, there are (...) (22 years ago, 16-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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