Subject:
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Re: Those stupid liberal judges are at it again!
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 05:53:26 GMT
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Viewed:
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1266 times
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David Koudys wrote:
>
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys writes:
> > > > K, if you wish to misinterpret the 'if a law is unjust there are ways to
> > > > work within the system to get rid of said law' go ahead. It comes with the
> > > > territory of... anyone... anyone--right--a Democracy.
> >
> > It's a Democratic Republic. There is a difference.
>
> The United States is a democratic republic. Fine, no problem--never said it
> wasn't--I said the way to get things changed is thru democracy, the process
> in which the people *vote*.
You're right. One should try and change things from within the system.
This is why those who don't agree with the current government and truly
care about our nation are trying to work within the system.
The purpose of enabling the free populace to have guns is twofold:
1. As a deterrent against the government getting out of control. If
everyone has guns, then the agents of the government need to think about
what they are doing, and make sure that when they take action, it is
justified.
2. The longer people hold on to the right to own guns as a regime
declines, the more people have them when the regime collapses to the
point where armed revolution is the only means of the populace regaining
control. I think most of us hope that point never comes, but the
founding fathers certainly felt it was likely to come, and perhaps even
should come.
I think it's very hard to second guess history. Sure, for the most part,
the rest of the British Empire reached reasonable governance without
revolution. But how much was that carried by the fact that the US did
revolt? Perhaps the rest of the empire realized that gee, we pushed one
people too hard and the bit back, that could happen again, perhaps we
should pull back before we push our other people to that point (this is
a lesson Israel desperately needs to learn, and so do the Palestinians,
and in fact, most of the world needs to learn).
I consider myself very lucky for growing up in the birthplace of the
revolution. I'm just amazed more people who grew up in the same
environment don't understand.
Remember, the "Shot Heard Round the World" was a British attempt to
disarm the populace. I think its exceedingly clear what the meaning of
the 2nd amendment is. In fact, I strongly suspect the "well regulated
militia" part is encouraging ALL citizens to be part of the militia. It
was the existence of a "well regulated militia" which enabled a
sufficient force to be called in a matter of hours to turn back a
military unit, inflicting massively disproportionate casualties as the
military unit fled for safety.
> "Government is not reason and it is not eloquence. It is force! Like fire it
> is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." -- George Washington
>
> I'm just using the same word choice and the same concept as your first
> president--maybe he was delusional. I'll paraphrase it and try to use my
> own words--we elect the people we want to run the country for a while. We,
> as the people, use the power of democracy by voting--we hold the power.
> Then we say to our representatives (at least he ones who won the election),
> 'Yeah, we're giving you the power to run our nation for a while, and if we
> don't like how you're doing it, then we'll kick your heinies out of office
> the next election.' Shall I try to explain the democratic process in a way
> that's simpler for you to understand?
It would be nice if we managed to kick them out on their fannies more
often. Sure, the presidents turn over, but Congress sure doesn't turn
over very well. And Congress is where the real power lies.
> > Was Bush, Jr. really elected
> > president legally? I have VERY STRONG doubts about this
>
> As do I. You think that Florida will have this fiasco the next time? You
> think that there aren't many people out there right now, overhauling the
> system so this type of issue *doesn't* happen again? It's not a perfect
> system, but look, it works and it can improve itself--the people want to
> improve it, not overthrow it at the least provocation.
Well, it looks to me like Florida hasn't quite fixed the fiasco. I think
if Jeb Bush had any guts, upon seeing that the first attempt after
things were supposedly fixed still fell flat, he would have made a call
to void this election, and try again, until they got it right.
> > In terms of elections and voting options, we are very near total collapse.
>
> Then work to change it. I don't think that the other states had too many
> problems so I'm sure the chicken little "total collapse" is just your
> euphimism for saying you didn't get what you wanted. Run for a seat if you
> don't like your voting options. As my pappy would say, put your money where
> your mouth is--you sure talk a good line but, besides having a piece of
> metal sitting in a (hopefully locked) drawer isn't cutting it.
It would be nice if anyone could run. Unfortunately the Demopublicans
have rigged the system so that it is almost impossible for anyone else
to run. Pretty clever huh?
> > > And if we have a stong and healthy tree of liberty, tyrants can't happen,
> > > therefore no need for the blood of patriots to be spilled.--David Koudys to
> > > LUGNET, not so private letter.
> >
> > This is too delusional for words -- this is exactly the kind of complacency
> > that everyone in our republic should fear as if it were the black plague.
>
> Once again I was using Jeffersons words and concepts to make a point. If
> something needs to be fixed, fix it--don't shoot it. It;s like if your car
> gets a flat--by the manner in which you express your views, we should shoot
> the car and get a new one--have some sort of revolution. I'm advocating
> that, well, yes the car has a flat, yes it needs to be fixed, but, lo and
> behold, if we just put a new tire on it, we can continue on our journey.
> Heck, we just have to fix the hole and we may be able to continue on.
>
> Make it work. Advocate fixing the problems, not overturing the entire
> system 'cause you don't like who's representing *you*--your fellow person
> wanted him there, and if there was an issue with Florida, make sure that
> issue doesn't happen again the next election--fix the problem, not shoot the
> system. Am I making myself clear?
And some things are beyond repair. You put them to rest and move on.
I've done it several times in my life. Why shouldn't the same principle
apply to the most important things in life?
> >
> > Where have you been during the last year? Things have gone from bad to
> > worse. Where does the Constitution support a "shadow govt." Wake up!
>
>
> I'm awake and thanking God I'm Canadian each and every time Dubya's on TV.
> Of course the flip side is I cringe every time Jean opens his mouth... but
> that's neither here nor there.
>
> But about the shadow gov't and the new 'laws' that are being forced thru (as
> Larry posted a few weeks back)... yeah, ouch with that. Me thinks that the
> Supreme court can overturn them 'cause they'll be found 'unconstitutional'.
> We shall see if the system works as I surmise it will. Now convice Dubya
> not to go to war--that's a more difficult issue.
The question is if the Supreme Court has the guts to over turn them. I
haven't seen them rushing to do justice for all our political prisoners.
Yes folks, we have reached the same low that some of our worst enemies
have.
> In 2002, 200+ years after the writing of the constitution, it is the
> military that fights for your right to freedom in the world abroad, and it
> is the purpose of the police to do the same for the country in which you
> live. The freedom that you enjoy is maintained thru these well-regulated
> militia units. It has *nothing* to do with the fact that you have a gun in
> your house. Your gun isn't protecting *anything* at all, except your own
> personal private property (if that 'cause y'know, being locked in a drawer
> is really going to deter thieves who want to come and take your property.)
I wonder if you will ever understand. The ONLY freedoms you truly have
are those you claim for yourself. Sure, various laws and social
conventions can make it easy to claim some freedoms, but ultimately, if
you don't claim them, no one's going to give them to you.
Unfortunately this same point about claiming freedom is why our foreign
policy has failed so badly. We can't just go in and say: "This is the
way it is folks." It doesn't work. We can help (and I think we are doing
a decent job in Afghanistan, perhaps we could have done better, but I'd
say the country has made an amazing turn around).
Frank
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Those stupid liberal judges are at it again!
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| (...) The United States is a democratic republic. Fine, no problem--never said it wasn't--I said the way to get things changed is thru democracy, the process in which the people *vote*. (...) "Government is not reason and it is not eloquence. It is (...) (22 years ago, 20-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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