 | | Re: slight
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(...) Again, a finite concept--Every hair on your head is numbered, every grain of sand, every molecule, He knows--do you get the idea that He is infinite yet? If it were *our* universe, and as finite beings, sure we would have to script it, but, (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: christian morals are inferior to tolerant morals
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(...) "Larry's morals and David's are equivalently good within your separate personal contexts." :) (...) Interesting note, though. In this particular case, you *haven't* judged David's theoretical person who *wouldn't*, whereas David has actually (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I agree. I would further ask John how he would demonstrate to someone permanently locked indoors that wind exists. (...) I had salmon last night--it tasted great and smelled great. Does that help? 8^) (...) For those playing along at home, (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | christian morals are inferior to tolerant morals
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(...) Why not? You'll have to present an argument other than "from authority" to convince me differently. Assuming we've named all the stakeholders, and they're all consenting adults who actually consented (posit this for the sake of the argument, (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I think Chris's point is that this is an absolute of Mosaic Law that goes against the "experiencing joy, love, happiness, sensualness, whatever" that was suggested as all ok in your comments. I'm certain that you didn't intend the "where-ever (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) I'll still argue that Biblical Creationism is falsifiable-- it's just that CreationISTS tend to either bend with the evidence, or refuse it. If, for example, we were able to "prove" that humans preceeded the Earth, out goes Biblical (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Here's a thought--with freedom comes responsibility. Stop twisting and making irrelevant points--that point you made has nothing to do with my idea, which is the non-separation of body and soul. Nowhere in the 10 commandments does it command (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) There is a great reason to accept that God didn't create the universe; we have no evidence that he did. We have evidence that the universe is here, and we have evidence that it began (in its current incarnation) some 15 billion years ago. But (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I have to admit, this is a remarkably funny subject, because the definition is so flexible, yet each flavor is convinced of its particular correctness (read rigidity). I once had a conversation with a Christian wherein they asked me something (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) OK, so when Moses (or God, depending on what you believe) tells us not to covet the neighbor's wife, what do you believe you shouldn't do? Is it a sin to nail your neighbor's wife? What if she wants you to? What if her husband does too? There (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) have (...) Right. (...) Uh, no. Is it really your assertion that Jehova is personally seeing to it that every electron tunnels just so? Man, what a bore. He ought to code the universe so that scripts take care of such things. (...) Well, that (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | inconsequential creator
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(...) No valid reason not to accept that the universe was created rather than always existed or spontaneously appeared... AS LONG AS that creator has had no other effect. As soon as you claim the creator has had other effects which are apparent or (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) No, you can't by definition inquire about the starting point of a starting point. (...) To what degree? A "larger" leap of faith? Nothing what we are talking about is "logical" We are talking about something out of nothing. We don't have any (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) "Only way?!?!" Aren't we talking about Big-G God here? The "only way" an infinite being can do something is however it wants to! And if that's not the case, then I can think of something greater than "a God who can't do things any way He (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) Again, I've been basing my argument on the notion of the Xtian interpretation of Genesis re: infinite Creator. All bets are off once an infinite entity steps into the equation, so my objection stands. This is also, by the way, why studies into (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys writes: <snip> (...) Not only is my grammar atrocious, but my spelling as well. Sorry 'bout that--firstly no spell check via web interface, and secondly, I think, I type, and mostly don't bother to re-read. (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) In complement to Tom's very correct points I would add that the claim "God always existed but the universe couldn't have always existed" is the falacy of special pleading, which states "for my theory I allow extraordinary circumstances but for (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I have stated many times that *my* form of Christianity takes the form of leaving you to run your life the way you want as long as you reciprocate. It's the phrasing 'wacko Xtian' (and related spelling and ideas) which kinda started this whole (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) You are defining an incorrect starting point then. Who/what created the Creator? A correct starting point for the Creator view would be when/how the Creator came to be. Otherwise, you are STILL left with the question of "how did it all begin"? (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) No evidence to support the existance of God? THe sustaining of all physical properties is not enough? Sure science can say, 'Oh, these pieces over here are made of these molecules, and these molecules are made of these atoms, and these atoms (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I really didn't mean for it to be funny. It just seems like how this kind of faith is generally built. What else would explain it? Even those born-again seem to be the result of a different kind of indoctrination. (...) One difference is that (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Actually, He already did that, if one accepts the notion of original sin. The predisposition to sin (ie, an inherent tendency toward evil) is hardly a tabula rosa for free will. If God has inflicted upon us (or allowed to be inflicted) a (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Well the answer is very simple: Someone provide us with a detailed delineation of what "proper" Xtianity is, and then we'll all know what we're talking about. But it seems positively mad for one particular Xtian to pound the pulpit about the (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) The only comment I'll make here is that the soul is generally defined to be a part of humanity which *can* be separated from the body at death, so I think this is not a logical assumption. But I see no reason why things that make the flesh (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I have to admit I almost snorted milk out my nose reading this "deep programming" and "childhood trauma" bit. Too much! =) But, if I may say so, it is no more obnoxious to express derision or condescension for John's views than it is for him (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) idea (...) from (...) The existence of a creator, to me, implies that he's still hanging around. Since there is no evidence to support that, and it seems like there would have to be if He were really there, I choose to go with spontaneous (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Okay, that's interesting to me that you would acknowledge a resistance the idea of the existence of a Creator. Taken all the way to the beginning, one needs to agree on *some* starting point. Either you believe it all just started from (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Well, I am not the one claiming to be a messenger of something that no one wants to hear about in debate. John is claiming such a thing, in addition to all other kinds of rights to judge others via morals, politics, what have you...maybe not (...) (22 years ago, 13-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) evidence (...) I want to start by acknowledging a significant resistance to the idea that an ultimate creator exists at all. That would certainly color my acceptance of evidence. I'm only saying this so that you don't feel the need to point it (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) <huge honkin' snip> I really have no particular desire to get into what seems to be a private battle here, but calling John out for his beliefs and saying he isn't a Christian because he doesn't follow a strictly biblical teaching isn't (...) (22 years ago, 13-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) They also mummify the pope. I'm not sure if this is a belief that he will come back in another life but it is clearly descendent from pharoh rituals. Unfortunatly the messed up the last one pretty bad ;-) cheers, Joseph (22 years ago, 13-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) (Not only the English speaking world - the Atlantic Coast of mainland Europe still retains lots of celtic traditions, many of which later influenced local christian communities :-) (...) True indeed. In fact, I believe that the Papacy has in (...) (22 years ago, 13-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Absolutely to all that. I mention the the Celtic (Druidic) traditions because they are the ones that permeate the English speaking world. Praying to Saints for intervention is little removed from Roman ancestor worship that were elevated to (...) (22 years ago, 13-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Not only "celtics" have criptic-pagan traditions (if the term can be used). If you look at the way that catholic mediterranean cultures revere the many saints, you may find it as a late expression of roman polytheism... For instance, the (...) (22 years ago, 13-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Read "The Winter Solstice" by John Matthews. Christian and pagan traditions have merged, often to the displeasure of the Christian Powers That Were At The Time. Personally, I don't have a problem with it, but then my great-grandmother left out (...) (22 years ago, 13-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I really have no idea what John Neal believes or why he believes it. I know he claims to be a Xtian -- but I see precious little evidence that he either reads, understands, or follows the words of Jesus (in the future, it is my intention to (...) (22 years ago, 13-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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I see. You've proved yet again you are a stubborn, knee-jerk Bible-thumper. Instead of gathering data to prove Richard's assertions wrong, you just launch into whacko ranting in an attempt to discredit HIM rather than his data. If you want to prove (...) (22 years ago, 13-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Well, I guess that's it. I may as well admit it-- I am a pagan, and I didn't even know it! And all of Christianity turns out to be a farce! Who knew? Richard did. Richard, that faith-crushin', intellectual GIANT knew it all along. With one (...) (22 years ago, 13-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) *Some?* 4 posts ago I gave you gold about this subject and this is your half- witted reply? Xmas and Easter ARE pagan holidays, often practiced with a Xtian veneer. That's it, there is no more. (...) Okay, so if I now asserted as a fact that (...) (22 years ago, 13-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Okay, I may have jumped the gun here. Would you provide an example of evidence (hypothetically speaking if necessary) which would lead you to believe in the existence of a God? -John (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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