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> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Thomas Stangl writes:
> > > John wrote:
>
> > > Okay, that's interesting to me that you would acknowledge a resistance the
> > > idea of the existence of a Creator. Taken all the way to the beginning, one
> > > needs to agree on *some* starting point. Either you believe it all just
> > > started from nothing, or a Creator (whose origin is inexplicable) started >>>it
> > > all. Seems to me that both require the same leap of faith, and are equal.
> > > You just choose; neither one is any more plausible than the other. Both by
> > > definition are the starting point to me.
> > You are defining an incorrect starting point then.
> > Who/what created the Creator?
> > A correct starting point for the Creator view would be when/how the Creator
> > came to be. Otherwise, you are STILL left with the question of "how did it
> > all begin"?
No, you can't by definition inquire about the starting point of a starting
point.
> > IOW, your starting point requires a larger leap of faith than a non-Creator
> > view, which is why some of us don't find it as logical as you do.
To what degree? A "larger" leap of faith? Nothing what we are talking about
is "logical" We are talking about something out of nothing. We don't have any
concept or ability to understand what we are discussing.
> In complement to Tom's very correct points I would add that the claim "God
> always existed but the universe couldn't have always existed" is the falacy
> of special pleading, which states "for my theory I allow extraordinary
> circumstances but for your theory I do not." It's simply a double standard
> applied in a very specific way.
So you would argue *2* starting points rather than one? I'm not sure I
understand your assertion.
> I would also add that John's post requires a false dilemma; "either the
> universe began at some point from nothing, or the Creator (who always
> existed) created the universe." This presupposes that there are only two
> options, when in fact there is at least one other: the universe, in some
> fashion, has always existed.
Okay, but I would argue that the ramifications of the universe just
spontaneously beginning or that it always existed are the same. The same moot
argument could be made for God's existence. I don't think it matters one way
or the other.
But do you agree that choosing any of these possiblities is random and not
based on any reason? For example, I say God created the universe, you say the
universe always existed. Neither of us can prove the other wrong, neither of
us has any more valid reason to not accept the other's position.
Put another way, you have no valid reason not to accept that the universe was
created by God, it would simply be an opinion or preference, based on whatever
reasons (but not scientific ones) you chose.
-John
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: slight
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| (...) There is a great reason to accept that God didn't create the universe; we have no evidence that he did. We have evidence that the universe is here, and we have evidence that it began (in its current incarnation) some 15 billion years ago. But (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | inconsequential creator
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| (...) No valid reason not to accept that the universe was created rather than always existed or spontaneously appeared... AS LONG AS that creator has had no other effect. As soon as you claim the creator has had other effects which are apparent or (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: slight
|
| (...) In complement to Tom's very correct points I would add that the claim "God always existed but the universe couldn't have always existed" is the falacy of special pleading, which states "for my theory I allow extraordinary circumstances but for (...) (22 years ago, 15-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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