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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> Okay, so you are saying that some Christians incorporate pagan traditions into
> their celebrations of Christmas and Easter.
*Some?* 4 posts ago I gave you gold about this subject and this is your half-
witted reply? Xmas and Easter ARE pagan holidays, often practiced with a
Xtian veneer. That's it, there is no more.
> I see little wrong with traditions no matter their origin. It is really a
> non-issue to me. But to a pagan who feels as if *their* traditions have been
> hijacked it may be a different story.
Okay, so if I now asserted as a fact that much of the old testament derives
from obvious references to Sumerian, Babylonian, Akadian, and Egyptian
mythology it's all still okay? It's all still divinely inspired plagarism?
Just checking. There's more stuff below when I get to talking about Moses.
[You don't know what you believe or why you believe it.]
And Pagans might feel differently, eh? Once upon a time people were
tortured and put to death for so little as practicing a pagan custom -- now
it's THE WAY to go for the average Xtian? Who knew? Too bad this could not
have been claimed during the "burning times".
If most of your views have this same amount of weight behind them, can you
see why no one but a believer shares your views? It's not like you and I
were sitting around trying to think of something cool to do at the end of
December every year, y'know? On one hand you claim divine authority for some
things, for other things there's just a "coolness" factor at work? That's
too lame for words.
So, I got it. You practice paganism as an Xtian, but do not follow the
biblically prescribed festivals as you should. You don't keep the law
because you are saved by grace. And you think you will escape hell because
you practice this nonsense in the name of Jesus? That's good, tell me
another one...
> > Mathew 5:17-20
> > Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come
> > to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth
> > pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be
> > fulfilled
> How would you interpret "fulfil" or "fulfilled" here?
I give it no special meaning.
In context, I think Jesus is trying to say that he sees people practicing
other things beyond the Mosaic law. He, Jesus, has not come to do away with
the law, but to carry out the law (a common dictionary will tell you that
"fulfill" means to 1. To bring into actuality; effect. 2. To carry out (an
order, for example). 3. To measure up to; satisfy. See synonyms at perform.
See synonyms at satisfy. 4. To bring to an end; complete.).
If anything, that whole section of Mathew is one in which Jesus is stressing
both the letter of the law -- acts, and what he asserts as the intent --
conception (not much of a stretch really). He says things like that it is
not the commission of adultery that is wrong but also to conceive of doing
it to begin with, etc. Ultimately, he has a much stricter law to impart --
now people can no longer merely follow the law, they have to mean it in
their hearts and minds.
I am going to guess that you think "fulfill" means something about the
sacrifice and the resurrection -- but I assert that I don't see it, and that
it's not there. Words have specific meanings.
> This is Christianity 101.
Redemptive work? To die worse than a dog's death on a Roman cross? I
wouldn't let them do that to my boy! You'll probably tell me that god is
love -- but verily I say unto you that your god is no better than Moloch, he
accepts human sacrifice as the only means of salvation!
You're right -- that sucks! I have a better resurrection myth to tell you
(maybe it will sound familiar).
The ancient Greeks worshipped a solar god called Hercules, who was believed
to have been born of the union of Zeus and a human mother who had -- wait
for it -- a virgin birth! Herod, O wait, I mean Hera wanted him dead but
Zeus was keen to keep him alive. Hercules was therefore put on Earth to
undergo various trials. But finally he died. But wait, there's more! Upon
his death Hercules descended to Hades for 3 days, but was later resurrected
to sit at the right hand of Zeus on Mt. Olympus. What's really amazing is
that this story about Hercules predates the story of Jesus by hundreds of
years. I think I'll give the Hercules story a very high "coolness" rating.
It's such a great story that you might say it's the greatest story ever told!
[You don't know what you believe or why you believe it.]
But wait, I have another story just like the Hercules or Jesus story except
that it's about a guy named Mithras (the sun god of Persia) that precedes
the Christian fable by at least 600 years. It's such a great story -- in
fact, it's such a great story that you might say it's the greatest story
ever told! Or is that "retold"...? I even have a few more that I will spare
you.
[You don't know what you believe or why you believe it.]
And while I am thinking this way I can't help but note that Moses was raised
as Egyptian Royalty. What a great guy that Moses -- first monotheist in
history. Why, before Moses we had all of these crazy gods -- too weird.
Funny thing though, as an Egyptian royal Moses might have heard of a Pharoah
that came before Moses' own time -- a guy named Akhnaten. That crazy
Akhnaten -- what a card! Akhnaten rejected the Egyptian pantheon in favor
of a single sun God -- the Aten. I know what you're thinking, and right --
Akhnaten wasn't his real name! Amenhotep IV had his name changed to Akhnaten
to honor the Aten. He just loved the Aten -- he loved it so much he built a
whole city just to worhsip it at a site near modern day Tel-al-Amarna. What
a nut! Sadly, the preists of his day had a good thing in the worship of the
Egyptian pantheon and got like zero fun out of the Aten. So, what do you
think they did? They had Akhnaten killed -- that's what! Then they razed
his city to the sand and covered it over. On almost all Egyptian monuments
where a glyph representing the name of Akhnaten could be found they either
scraped his glyph off or replaced it with a glyph indicating "the heretic."
They even profaned his corpse and left it for the jackals to eat. Legend has
it that Akhnaten even now wanders the desert as a mummy-less spirit. We
might never have known about Akhnaten except that we discovered the remains
of his city sometime during the last century. But I guess Moses never heard
this story even though it's coolness rating is almost off the charts,
right?. Not bloody likely...
But, I'll even go so far as to give the Moses version of the one god myth a
high coolness rating -- after all it's full of blood and guts, and guys
getting it on with their wives' handmaidens (or their own daughters for that
matter!). I just LOVE these family values...
[You don't know what you believe or why you believe it.]
But, you're right -- I guess it doesn't matter how a tradition starts if
it's all make-believe anyway.
-- Hop-Frog (color me gone...)
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: slight
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| (...) Well, I guess that's it. I may as well admit it-- I am a pagan, and I didn't even know it! And all of Christianity turns out to be a farce! Who knew? Richard did. Richard, that faith-crushin', intellectual GIANT knew it all along. With one (...) (22 years ago, 13-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: slight
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| (...) Okay, so you are saying that some Christians incorporate pagan traditions into their celebrations of Christmas and Easter. (...) That may be. As far as Christmas trees go, I think what has happened is that traditions have been borrowed and (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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