 | | rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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Hey guys, Here's what we have on deck for 2005: April - Unnamed Train Show. Staging for NMRA, goal to have 80% of what we need for NMRA for show at this display. DaveK? Janey? Comments on extended loop? April - rtlToronto/live3: RC Racing. Everyone (...) (19 years ago, 27-Feb-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) I think it's definately necissary, but as to what that number is, without having a balance at home I'm not sure what to suggest. I've got some nice scales at work, I could get the mass of say, 4 RCX's and check what that is? (...) My initial (...) (19 years ago, 27-Feb-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) First of all.... do we know a date? (if I missed it, my apologies.) Second of all, as for the extended loop, since it is not up to me at all, I'm going to throw this back to Dave (with a big question mark...is it worth it, or do you want to (...) (19 years ago, 27-Feb-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) Here's the thing on the extended loop--we're not bringing it to NMRA. When Frank called last week, I mentioned that we needed a 10x10 area, for that's the layout we're bringing to NMRA. If we want to get a larger layout together, the (...) (19 years ago, 28-Feb-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re:other upcoming events
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On Mon, February 28, 2005 1:41 pm, David Koudys said: (...) If you really want to do something beyond a simple RC race, you could have a "minimum weight" so everyone would have to build up their cars a bit (then Dave's 8448 could compete). If the (...) (19 years ago, 28-Feb-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) One option for the weight restriction is to use something like the weighting currently in use for jockeys... but on a case by case basis. Specifically, put two bots on the beam, then weight the end of the lighter beam until the two start off (...) (19 years ago, 1-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) I don't think that will work properly, though (from a fairness standpoint). Specifically because: 10 N @ 1 m = 10 Nm So a 1 kg mass (appr. 10 N) at the end of the beam generates a moment of 10 Nm at the fulcrum. Robot A weighs 25 N and robot B (...) (19 years ago, 1-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) Do we really need a weight restriction? I mean, if you really want to load yer bad boy up with lead bricks bought off BrickLink, go right ahead. Calum (19 years ago, 1-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) It's easier and heavier to do it with battery boxes. I have more then enough of those. In the MIT contest, how do they handle this? Derek (19 years ago, 1-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) I don't know, I've been trying to find the MIT contest webpages but I haven't been able to turn them up. I think there was a size and weight restriction in the original contest. Actually, come to think of it, all I remember was Alan Alda in (...) (19 years ago, 1-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) B has the advantage if and only if the assumption that the robots move at the same rate holds true. Assuming that the two robots are are similar in terms of battery and motor configurations, i.e. can deliver the same power, robot A in the (...) (19 years ago, 1-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) Derek's got a good point - lead bricks aren't necessary - lots of battery boxes with dead batteries, or, 8466 tires. I would suggest a digital postal scale for event day, or a mechanical LEGO-built scale. Anyone UNDER the defined weight limit (...) (19 years ago, 1-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) Right. I made that assumption to prove that even if both robots are the same distance from the fulcrum, they are no longer in balance (a neutral win state). (...) I think you missed my point entirely. You were saying that by adding a mass to (...) (19 years ago, 1-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) Another thought is to use some external source to hold the beam still for the first 10 to 20 seconds of the contest, allowing both robots to do their stuff, and then let the beam go. That should have the effect of slowing down the super-fast, (...) (19 years ago, 1-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) Found these: (URL) clear photos of the actual setup, but the prof in charge does mention Lego as an inspiration. -nk (19 years ago, 1-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) It is entirely possible that I missed your point entirely :) But I do realize that the balancing will only work at one state. My thought was that if the goal is to get your side tipped down a certain distance, than just having a large bot mass (...) (19 years ago, 1-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) (URL) seems kinda... odd. The instant it starts to move in one direction, it's going to "snap" over and that's the end....? Iain (19 years ago, 1-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) Yeah, the center of gravity of the whole assembly is ABOVE the beam, so the whole thing is by definition unstable. Weird. I didn't quite get it either. Are we missing something? My thinking is (and I built a quick model from LEGO) that we (...) (19 years ago, 2-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) So back to the T, right? (...) Without saying too much, I think it might be a good idea for the moment to stick to Home Depot supplies. :-/ Iain (19 years ago, 2-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) Well, be aware the tiltiwhatever the hell was a "live" contest. The students had to control their machines using air pumps by hand or something and they were given like four air lines into the machine from a stationary control point. Calum (19 years ago, 2-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) Thanks! I think this game will be a lot of fun. (...) I think we should take something like one RCX, three motors and then triple or quadruple the number to get a restriction. (...) Well, I think one dimension restriction should be okay, ie, (...) (19 years ago, 2-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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"Calum Tsang" <tsangc@mie.utoronto.ca> wrote in message news:ICqp29.v4I@lugnet.com... (...) Me too, I am really looking forward to it - and not just because I've finally conned Jason into being my official programmer. :) (...) Yeah! That sounds (...) (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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e should take something like one RCX, three motors and then (...) Just weighed on my handy-dandy Philips Essence kitchen scale - One RCX (1.5) with batteries and 3 standard RIS motors (no cables) is 376g. I'm curious how that compares with others. (...) (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) I'm wondering about NiMH batteries VS normal alkalines? Based on the above, maybe a 908g limit ? (Iain, just for you) or just 1kg? It's hard to estimate how many bricks etc a robot would need on average to do its thing.... and I think it would (...) (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) Yeah, 2.2 pounds sounds good to me :) Calum (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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On Thu, March 3, 2005 10:03 am, Calum Tsang said: (...) That pretty much means only 1 RCX. (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) Ah, and I was planing a 48 RCX cluster. Derek (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) If I remember correctly, on the Nova episode, all the participants started with the same box of parts. That's what kept it fair, both weight and size wise. (...) Me. -Greg (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) Now how am I supposed to load my entire opening book into 1 RCX? Calum (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) It wont just topple as it is "spring" return to centre...This puts the whole system in dynamic oscillation (especially with the 8lb ball swinging...) groked more of the orifinal MIT site. 2001 contest table details here (URL) shaft is hollow (...) (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) I measured with (new) alkalines. -Rob A> (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) Hey Calum... is the broomstick thingy supposed to be directly under the beam? In the drawing it looks like it would be offset... -Rob A> (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) You know, I didn't realize that it doesn't make any sense at all :) (or was I trying to make it look like an Escher drawing? you decide!) I guess it would be immediately below the beam itself. I think, it was either Iain or John, who said if (...) (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) I liked the tray of loose stuff idea. Steve's balls, rice, something like that. You can't grab on to it, but you can collect it to add to your weight. I fear the broomstick would just turn this into a tug of war. Derek (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) That'd be ideal, offsets is nasty foo. (...) I was just saying it should be oriented the way you've shown it, vs. 90 degrees to that, because if it's the other way then you have to traverse a fixed amount of beam before you can reach down and (...) (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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On Thu, March 3, 2005 3:44 pm, Derek Raycraft said: (...) Hmm. Tug-of-war. Who's pieces will break first? This contest has some serious damage potential. Sure, falling off a table is one thing (or jumping an RCX across a gap). But, imagine two (...) (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) See this is what makes it so durn fun. :) (...) That's a really good point. Maybe we should just use another 2x4 at the base, running horizontally, fixed? Just another thought - what if we had a beam not only below, but above, equidistant from (...) (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) Steve's point is correct. Even with a 2x4 above or below, you still need to build the entire frame to hold the beam 2x4, then build the broomstick/bottom 2x4 too if you want pull it. If this option wasn't in the game, then players only need a (...) (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) Look back was rtlToronto9, Show Me the Monkey, the one with the ladder like thing in the video? (It was pre-me-n-rtlT, so I don't know) Was the complexity of the "playfield" such that there were less competators? Did most people build a mockup (...) (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) Well that's their choice if they want to use that beam. I say if they're going to do that, let them build that structure (if they want - I certainly don't think it's necissary for proving a concept). It's just pushing a beam/pulling a beam. (...) (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) I took a short section of 2x4 and drilled holes in it, and stuck in some short pieces of dowel the same OD as the pipe we used for the real thing. 4 rungs I think. It was easy to mock up. For the next one it'll be easy, because everyone just (...) (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) I would guess yes, and definitely yes. I don't think this should stop us, but it is a concern. Plus someone has to build the contest one. So it can't be so complex that we can't even get one built. Derek (19 years ago, 3-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) By process of elimination, I guess it was me then who mentioned it :) Grabbing the broomstick, which is like a few feet (maybe even a meter) below the beam, would be quite hard I think. However, if it could be done, it would almost guarantee a (...) (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) Good point. A simple 2x4 is the easiest to test and setup at home. Let's go broomstickless! John (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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On Thu, March 3, 2005 4:56 pm, Iain Hendry said: (...) What about changing the contest, so the goal is to RAISE your side of the beam? Robots start on the end. Lighter is better. Not sure if it's a better contest, just different. But it seems like (...) (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) This is the second time I've gasped reading one of your suggestions today. Good show! :) You bring up an awesome point - anyone can build a HEAVY robot. But it takes real skill to lighten things up. I like this even more now. We don't need a (...) (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) Well, the early rtlToronto games were limited to one RCX--but not one RIS set. The idea was that everyone had lots of Lego, but not lot of Mindstorms sets. To keep it even, we said one RCX only, so that "anyone" with a basic set could (...) (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) Brilliant! I really like the idea of raising your end..... It even give you an ideal "null" competitor.....an empty beam :) -Rob A> (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) Lifting your side is cool--it also solves the broomstick problem should someone want to drop a leg to the floor. But then it sort of encourages a sumo like approach, because to win, you need to either drop a leg OR fight the other robot to get (...) (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) Wouldn't I just have to drive my 'bot to the other side? No 'bots on my side would make my end go up (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) Wouldn't I just have to drop off the beam to make my side go up? Derek (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) Sure. But then what? Coz' what if he's trying to drive over to your side, hmm? :) (Wow, it sure is obvious when everyone rolls out of bed and into work!) ::giggles:: Iain (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) Sounds like a valid strategy to me! See, this has totally opened up what methods people might use to get the task done. This is awesome. If we leave it this open-ended, imagine how many different solutions we might see come game day! Iain (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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On Fri, March 4, 2005 10:13 am, Iain Hendry said: (...) So many strategies. All very simple. They all work. What works best? (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) And that my friends is the spirit of competition. I am so pumped about this! rtlBeamPumping1 Iain (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) I think you at least have to stay on the beam. Otherwise, EVERYONE will jump off the beam. What kind of a contest is that? The other issue I can think of is JeffE style loopholing :). I can see JeffE driving up from California, leaving a Lego (...) (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) For me, it's more difficult to raise my opponents end. That stops the JeffE sticker thing. So I think we should work on the premise of bringing our end down. (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) Okay, if anyone builds a robot that "leaps off" the beam, more power to them. That would be amazing. Unless they are kamakaze.* Besides, that doesn't guarentee you a win at all. (...) And what did we decide about that? I think it was that we (...) (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) Quite you. That's what I was going to do. Derek (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) LOL! I was actually thinking of just a lone 2x4 brick. (...) I vote for (b) lower your end of the beam (raise your opponent's end). My thoughts: If we want to RAISE our end, then we would could end up with "sumo on a 2x4" because each robot (...) (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: rtlToronto19: Balance of Power and other upcoming events
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(...) Hmm, I think that a) getting over the bit of beam sticking down to keep the thing in stable equlibrium, and b) working through that tiny opening in the structure will present insurmountable headaches. I don't see that happening very easily at (...) (19 years ago, 4-Mar-05, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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