 | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Scott Arthur
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| | | (...) I accept abortion is an issue. Most have opinions on it which at times may be hard to convey due to underlying emotions etc. However, I am always amazed at the importance of the issue in the US. Is there a reason for this? I know it is a (...) (24 years ago, 10-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —James Simpson
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| | | | | (...) Scott: Perhaps I can answer this, as I am indeed both a political pro-life supporter, and a death penalty advocate as well. Some charge that it is an inconsistent position - that life is life, and indeed killing is killing. To this charge I (...) (24 years ago, 10-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | (...) I see you point of view, but I still feel a life is a life. Personally, I could never take another life in cold blood - no matter what the reason. The only death I can remember agreeing with was this one: (URL) I was not "happy" with that. Is (...) (24 years ago, 10-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —James Simpson
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| | | | | | | | | (...) I respect that, and I aknowledge that you may be correct. Personally, I (...) Nor could I, but execution is not in cold blood. Cold blood is murder, which is unjustified and therefore always Wrong. The (...) offered on their behalf, and until (...) (24 years ago, 10-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Hah! I could kill in cold blood. If I was in a rage, or if I simply had to eat, I think I could manage. OTOH, I think the concept that state-sponsored execution is somehow not killing in cold-blood is laugable. Killing when you have a choice (...) (24 years ago, 11-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | (...) That was a good one to bring up. From what I have read of the issue with the siamese twins, I am in fact happy with the decision. I am satisfied that a rights based examination of the situation was made. In the case of abortion, it is equally (...) (24 years ago, 10-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | (...) Agreed, but what are they? There is a clear incongruity in the US, in that the father has _no_ say in whether the child is aborted -- it all rests with the mother, and yet the father is financially burdened with no recourse. (...) What about (...) (24 years ago, 11-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | Please note in the following discussion that my own feelings on when if ever abortion is appropriate are very undecided. The following is a thought exercise. Don't assume that just because I make a statement below that it equates to how I really (...) (24 years ago, 11-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —John DiRienzo
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| | | | | | | | | "Frank Filz" <ffilz@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:3A0DB4A3.2F33B6...ing.com... (...) that the (...) the (...) Right, I brought this up here last year, while debating Larry, who was much more steadfast and aware of his stance on the abortion (...) (24 years ago, 12-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Humans generally don't, but caterpillars and butterflies do. There is no one particular moment that a caterpillar becomes a butterfly; the transformation happens gradually. Similarly, when a human dies, there's usually not any one paricular (...) (24 years ago, 12-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) The organism stays the same species the whole time just like the human does. And do you think that the betterfly really changes more than the human does? I'd say less. There is a little wormy thing with legs and then it grows some wings and (...) (24 years ago, 12-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) This little description brings to mind some thoughts: 1. Yes, male humans are aggressive boogers, even all the way down to how their sperm accomplish their half of the act of conception... 2. the last stanza in a fun little poem (Prehistoric (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) I have had people in face to face discussions, refuse to ever talk to me again because I supported ideas like this. (Or that sexual encounters between adults and children are not necessarily unhealthy, or that cannibalism isn't evil.) But the (...) (24 years ago, 12-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Parental strategies? (was: Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne) —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Hmm. Interesting, Chris. I'm curious about some things. First, how old is your son? And why would he think that you might "own" him, or that he is your "slave"? (I assume you mean that you don't "own him" in the sense that he is your (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Parental strategies? (was: Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Six (and three months). (...) Are you asking why he would put it in those words? He wouldn't. Or are you asking where he would get the idea that when dad says "go to your room" he must? If the latter, most children get that idea based on the (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Parental strategies? (was: Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne) —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Got it. (...) Yes. Okay. (...) How about the thinking that "if I don't go to my room when my parents ask, they will be displeased with me and I want them to love me, not be unhappy with me, so I will do it". This is the usual motivation IMO, (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Parental strategies? (was: Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) they (...) me, so (...) Well, how about it? I know that that takes place. But what is behind that? What do they know will happen when they are "displeased with me?" And I think it is distinctly unhealthy for kids to grow up in an environment (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Parental strategies? (was: Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne) —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Not what I meant. Kids need to know right from the git-go that their parents love them-- that no one in the world will ever love them more than they will. It is an unconditional love. There isn't any "love extortion" going on at all. A child (...) (24 years ago, 14-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Parental strategies? (was: Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) You mean there shouldn't be, right? Because I believe it's not too uncommon for exactly that to take place. And even when the parents don't know that that's exactly what they're doing. (...) I can't imagine why you would think that. Do you (...) (24 years ago, 14-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Parental strategies? (was: Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne) —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Yes, a parent's love should be unconditional for their children. Even so, I'm not sure one can really turn love on and off for their kids. (...) I tested my theory with my own kids last night. They actually gave me that answer. Maybe I have (...) (24 years ago, 14-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Parental strategies? (was: Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) not (...) I believe that love (real love) can't be turned on and off. It would sometimes be easier if it could. But just because you can't turn your love for your kids on and off, doesn't mean that you can't pretend that you can and abuse them (...) (24 years ago, 15-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Parental strategies? (was: Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne) —John DiRienzo
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| | | | | | | | | | Thanks Chris for addressing that which is too rarely looked at. Children no more need a master on Earth than a master in heaven. Most people do not understand the purpose of the mind and have no concept of how to kindle its fire. I think you have (...) (24 years ago, 27-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Parental strategies? (was: Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne) —John Neal
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Uh, we don't know that... (...) And you do? Please enlighten, but first please cite your source of this understanding. (...) I think he's shown how to get your kid to call you by your first name, that's about all. (...) Uh, we don't know (...) (24 years ago, 27-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Parental strategies? (was: Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) This is a deep epistimological issue. Which part don't we know? I don't know that the sun came up this morning (I've been at work since before sunrise) but I don't just 'think' that it has. Actually, I'm willing to go out on a limb and say (...) (24 years ago, 2-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | (...) I think this is already clear, but just in case, me too. (...) Yup. I agree. (...) Yup. I agree. (...) John's response discusses the implied contract between the mother and father. I agree with him that these contracts should be written and (...) (24 years ago, 12-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —John DiRienzo
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| | | | | | | | "Christopher Weeks" <clweeks@eclipse.net> wrote in message news:G3x13L.8HB@lugnet.com... (...) father. (...) the (...) to. We (...) decent (...) it (...) right (...) the (...) exist (...) that (...) I wonder if the human rights abuses of women in (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | (...) Well, that's not exactly what I meant. I was talking about something that women would be against too. (...) Privately Produced Law. Chris (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) Some, like me. (...) Absolutely. Society has invested oodles and gobs of resources into the adult, while the fetus costs virtually nothing to lose. (...) This is your second use of "objectively." I think you'll find that it means something (...) (24 years ago, 11-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —James Simpson
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| | | | | | (...) Since I received several error messages when trying to open dictionary.com, I will quote you one of the definitions of "objective" from The American Heritage Dictionary Second College Edition: "2) Having actual existence or reality." I meant (...) (24 years ago, 11-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —John DiRienzo
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| | | | | | | "James Simpson" <mitchjacko@cs.com> wrote in message news:G3vtI2.BtK@lugnet.com... (...) most (...) of (...) help (...) believe (...) What do you mean justice exists? Thats preposterous. Justice doesn't exist. If it did there wouldn't be the words (...) (24 years ago, 12-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —James Simpson
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| | | | | | | | (...) Perhaps I didn't phrase my sentiments clearly. Perhaps I should have said that some actions are inherently just and some are inherently unjust. I believe that Justice is the embodiment of certain moral principles that are objectively true, and (...) (24 years ago, 12-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | (canceled) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) From Merriam-Webster's (URL) , the essense of objective is something "having reality independent of the mind." So two rational people examining the evidence, will come to the same conclusion about objective matters. The very fact that I (...) (24 years ago, 12-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —James Simpson
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| | | | | | (...) I in fact do believe that certain moral truths operate independently of the mind. Because something is objectively true, it does not follow that the moral truth is imminently and transparently obvious to an observer. You may be right - my (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) protecting (...) soldiers, (...) What if you're protecting your homeland and you're sniping wounded soldiers? Those folks are going to get medical attention and come back with guns. And when they do, they're likely to be mad. So why not kill (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —James Simpson
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| | | | | | | (...) Reasonable limits have to be set somewhere. One can err by taking "what-if" scenarios too far when considering actions. The idea of killing wounded soldiers just because they *might* become able-bodied seems morally-repugnant. Better to take (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | (...) I can respect that. (...) I don't know the tenets of your religion very well, having never agreed with them. But is it your job to mete out that kind of justice according to Christianity? I thought Christ admonished you to turn the other cheek (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —James Simpson
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| | | | | | | | (...) That is indeed a principle tenent of the faith. I won't lie to you that I have questions as to how the balance of mercy/judgment must be applied by the state (whatever political state it might be). I think that the criminal justice system has (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | (...) someone (...) Wow. I don't buy your arguments for many things, but this was good! Really. You basically used the same logic that I use for why it's OK to use lethal force to defend your home. Hmmm. (...) for (...) How (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | (...) Well, I'd hate to think that you'd circumcise the poor guy again! I'm not sure where I come down on the whole snippage issue; the arguments about hygiene and "healthier in the long run" just don't seem that solid. I suppose it *is* mutilation, (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | (...) I (...) Well, you know, only as punishment. ;-) (...) It sounds below like you have no reason to be unsure. Why would you do it? (...) Me too. I think that's why it's so hard for people to abandon the practice. And honestly, an unmutilated (...) (24 years ago, 13-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —John Neal
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| | | | | | Christopher Weeks wrote: <snippage of er, snippage discussion> (...) How on earth could you make an informed decision on *that*? ;-) John (...) (24 years ago, 14-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | (...) You are absolutely correct. I believe the one word answer is 'hypocracy.' The deal, I think, is that people have an easy time getting righteous warm fuzzy feelings in the depths of their mind for protecting babies. It is much harder to get (...) (24 years ago, 11-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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