Subject:
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Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 12 Nov 2000 16:14:01 GMT
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Viewed:
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820 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, James Simpson writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes:
> > > I believe that some crimes objectively deserve to be punished by death.
> >
> > This is your second use of "objectively." I think you'll find that it means
> > something other than what you think it does. Check out www.dictionary.com.
>
> Since I received several error messages when trying to open dictionary.com,
> I will quote you one of the definitions of "objective" from The American
> Heritage Dictionary Second College Edition: "2) Having actual existence or
> reality." I meant just what I said.
From Merriam-Webster's http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary , the essense of
objective is something "having reality independent of the mind." So two
rational people examining the evidence, will come to the same conclusion about
objective matters. The very fact that I disagree (and it's not just a little
disagreement with wording or something) demonstrates that the matters to which
you have assigned the term objective, are in fact, subjective matters. now,
you're free to have your opinion, and I'm glad for a foil against which to
sharpen my own opinions, but I wanted to point out that your perceptions of
truth are actually opinions.
They are in fact, objectively, opinions :-)
> You and I have debated the question as
> to whether fundamental absolute principles objectively, err... that is,
> actually, really ,literally exist. I say that self-evident foundational
> truths do indeed exist, and I'm sure that you remember our debate in months
> past in which I layed out my argument to the best of my ability. You
> disagree with me, and I respect that. We obviously have different
> presuppositions regarding the nature of reality.
But if these very "self-evident...truths" exist, why are they remarkably non
evident? I'm not the only one either, or we might agree that I'm just
perceptively crippled. But I bet that we could get a bunch of people to
disagree that "some crimes objectively deserve to be punished by death."
Because of that, even you would (I hope) see that your claim of self-evidence
is not correct.
> > > Premeditated murder? Yes.
> >
> > Like military sniping?
>
> Do you really want me to give you my opinion on that matter?
Sure. I wouldn't have come up with that example of premeditated murder if I
didn't think it was a good test case. If you're just going to say that it's
not murder when your government tells you to do it, then I suppose not. But if
you have some reasonable argument, or agreement, then I'd love to hear it.
> You and I no
> doubt approach most issues from wholly different perspectives, but I love a
> good sound parley.
I guess that I've pretty soundly suggested that I'm opposed to sniping. That's
not universally so. For instance, I think that instead of going to Iraq with
full force, we should have executed Saddam Hussein (did I spell that right?).
That murder (that's what it would be) would be wrong, but less wrong than
bombing the crap out of the country. And it would have done more good. So on
balance, it would have been the right solution.
> > > Heinous brutalities? Yes.
> >
> > Like circumcision?
>
> Are you playing devil's advocate, or do you believe that circumcision is
> really a moral evil?
I am not playing the devil's advocate. I am presenting examples of the class
of crimes that you say are self-evidently punishable by death.
I don't have a complete definition of heinous, but it's closely synonymous with
abominable which is "worthy of causing disgust" or "quite disagreeable or
unpleasant." Brutality is acting in a brutal fashion. Brutal is "grossly
ruthless or unfeeling" and "suggests a lack of intelligence, feeling,
or humanity." So, I am comfortable saying that the mutilation of a baby
human's genitalia is an example of disgusting, ruthless, stupid, inumanity.
But I don't think you should be put to death for having it done. Basically, it
has been an ignorance-promulgated practice in our society for quite a while and
now that's changing. It would be hard for you to find a doctor under the age
of thirty who would strongly promote circumcision.
> If you do, well... I'm not going to take issue with
> your personal convictions.
It sounds as if you disagree. Why?
> > > Even Rape? I'm not sure, although arguably, Yes.
> >
> > Hard-core victim/agressor rape, date rape, rape-based fantasy fulfilment • being
> > called rape by a sour-grapes girlfriend?
>
> Rape (just so we understand our terms)as defined by The American Heritage
> Dictionary Second College Edition: "The crime of forcing another person to
> submit to sexual intercourse." I mean rape.
But what about the shades of grey? If I'm having sex, and as I orgasm, the
woman tells me to stop and get out, and I do, but only after the physical
effects of the orgasm subside a bit, did I rape her? Probably not. What if
I'm not in that state, but I continue the sex act in an attempt to change her
mind? is that rape? What if it lasts only ten second until she indicates that
she's serious? What if it lasts four minutes? It's still not clear cut from
that definition.
> Wait...here's another
> definition: "The refuse of grapes left after the extraction of the juice in
> wine-making." Sour-grapes girlfriends? Now I'm just confused.
Oops ;-) I didn't have the meaning in mind.
> > > The primary responsibility of the criminal
> > > justice system is to deliver justice.
> >
> > Justice is a sham. It's a phantom. It doesn't exist. When possible the • most
> > appealing remedy at hand should be sought when one treads on the rights of
> > another. That's all.
>
> Are you absolutely sure, or is that a subjective opinion?
It is my opinion that remedies to injustice should occur.
Chris
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