Subject:
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Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 13 Nov 2000 10:11:30 GMT
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Viewed:
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949 times
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"Christopher Weeks" <clweeks@eclipse.net> wrote in message
news:G3x13L.8HB@lugnet.com...
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz writes:
> > Please note in the following discussion that my own feelings on when if
> > ever abortion is appropriate are very undecided.
>
> I think this is already clear, but just in case, me too.
>
> > It would certainly seem that at any stage in which the woman would be
> > allowed to chose abortion to avoid the future responsibility of caring
> > for the child, that the father ought to have some comparable right of
> > being able to say "I'm not going to support this child."
>
> Yup. I agree.
>
> > Now there's a pretty radical statement.
>
> Yup. I agree.
>
> > Thinking about the implications of that
> > suggest that possibly the decision to abort should be a join decision to
> > the extent that the pregnancy does not significantly affect the mother's
> > health. Or perhaps it really does suggest that while the father has a
> > role in providing the genetic material and the catalyst for conception,
> > that the father is not in fact obligated to support the child.
>
> John's response discusses the implied contract between the mother and • father.
> I agree with him that these contracts should be written and clearly out in • the
> open so that there are no implied contracts. When I impregnated my son's
> mother, we discussed whether or not we wanted to abort. We decided not • to. We
> made a decision about it together. That worked very well. It was the • decent
> thing for her to include me. But if we'd thought about it and discussed • it
> (and ideally, drawn up a contract) before having sex, the unclarity about • right
> and wrong in that situation wouldn't have had to exist.
>
> But, I can imagine how drawing up a pre-sexual contract might really spoil • the
> mood. So isn't it actually better that a default contract of some kind • exist
> for our society, and only for the people who want different terms would • that
> kind of negotiation need to take place?
I wonder if the human rights abuses of women in this country's past and
in most countries past or current can not be attributed to the "spoiling of
the mood" you wrote about. We accepted beating women for 1000s of years,
probably because it suited men when he was "in the mood" and the woman
wasn't. We have accepted sexual improprieties in the workplace (most work
places still do, it seems) for the sake of this mood. Just because it may
hinder the ease with which men get laid, doesn't mean its a bad idea, Chris.
Maybe it would be better if we came to accept new "terms". Terms on the
woman's part that state, "I won't get pregnant if we have our fun." Then if
she does get pregnant, since she is the one with that final choice, then it
is her responsibility to deal with it. Your reasoning says we may as well
keep the death penalty since most people support it, and those likely to
complain can do something differently (yeah, right, after they've been
fried).
> I don't think the analogy holds unless insurance becomes a more broad part • of
> our life. In your scenario, most people have auto and home insurance, and • some
> combination of insurers would pay. If those insurances are not there, • then
> obviously the homeowner is screwed. Just like the mother who gets raped.
>
> > Back to the child of a rape: A morning after pill sure sounds like a
> > good solution if we can accept it.
>
> Isn't the deal that it makes the womb inhospitable to the blastocyst? • That's
> still killing a human and doesn't satisfy the life (and rights) begins at
> conception crowd.
I am in that crowd, and I think its a pretty non-life affirming pill.
but what can you do.
> On the surface I agree with this, but I want to mull it over a bit. John • shot
> off the answer something like: of course they can't force the mother, they
> don't own her. But he's also in favor of abortion not being OK (I think) • so
> obviously someone has the right to force the mother's action. Or maybe • I'm
> confused about his stance.
I guess you are confused. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean
you can't do it. A high percentage of people in this country make their
living illegally, so that shows how well justice works or how well laws
prevent anything. The government is not out there preventing murders. When
murders occur, someone speaks for the dead, and stiff penalties usually
follow. In the case of abortion, I think it should be the same way.
Sometimes, the woman will be found guilty of murder, and will be given a
stiff penalty. Sometimes the woman will be found not guilty for some reason
or another, some times they won't even try it because it was the logical
right thing to do. However having a law in place and the threat of stiff
penalties will reduce the number of abortions that occur due to recklessness
or irresponsibility. At present there is no remedy for this injustice that
occurs repeatedly everyday.
> > This of course brings up the related debate: When is it appropriate to
> > exert control on the behavior of the mother, and to what extent?
>
> My head just exploded.
>
> I guess I side with Todd, in that she should not be prevented, but if she
> squashed the rights of another, she should be tried.
>
> In Christopia, our rights and legalities would all result from a web of
> contracts, and law would be privately produced. So no central government • would
> be needed to get involved, but the stakeholders would work the situation • out
> according to the contracts to which they were all party. I think this • means
> that for some people abortion would be illegal and for others it wouldn't.
> This might be the hole in PPL.
What is PPL?
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