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(...) I fear "the great Satan" would have supplied them... no doubt as part of the “war on terror”. If Bush was serious about stopping terrorism, he’d have sorted out Israel and Palestine a long time ago. Instead he chose to fuel terrorism by (...) (21 years ago, 23-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) It's gotten to the point where I just don't care anymore. Since 9/11, and even before, I got frustrated, angered, incensed, and just downright PO'd about what the various gov'ts, leaders, etc. were doing to each other. Now, finally, after (...) (21 years ago, 23-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) Yeah, the dopes-- killing an old man, and one in a wheelchair to boot! 'Course, that old man did found and lead Hamas, a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of the State of Israel through the targeted killing of, among others, (...) (21 years ago, 23-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) Just because the man should be dead or the world is better off with him dead doesn't mean Isreal was justified in killing him. In fact I would postulate that this will lead to much more killing that it will prevent. This is why a open policy (...) (21 years ago, 23-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) K, so I care a little bit... Holy idiocy on your part, John! What's that all about? How can you be this obtuse? It doesn't matter what he did before *now* that he died, by the way in a violent fashion, by the hands of the Israelis. Violence (...) (21 years ago, 23-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) His organization has declared war on Israel. He was a completely legitimate target. (...) I think the Israelis believed that at one time, too, because the fact is that they probably could have snuffed out his pathetic existence any time that (...) (21 years ago, 23-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) This is laughable, the Palestinian people, who have been known to strap bombs to their bodies and blow themselves up, along with innocent men, women, and children, are going to have more anger. Please tell me how a group of people willing to (...) (21 years ago, 23-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote: (snip) (...) Sometimes it is. Are you suggesting, for example, that the US should not be responding to al-Qaeda lest we really piss them off? Fact is that not responding emboldens terrorists to (...) (21 years ago, 23-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Costello wrote: (snip) (...) As I mentioned, any Palestinian groups or leaders who shows sympathy or a proclivity to make peace with Israel may well find themselves the enemy of Hamas and thus dead. There is a (...) (21 years ago, 23-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) I have a doubt, then. If he was under Israeli custody prior to 1997, and he was released, doesn't it imply the israelis accepted he was no longer fair game? Or was he released to become fair game? Pedro (21 years ago, 23-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) I think you and John both subscribe to the 'Dubya Administration' way of twisting what was said. But I can live with that. In no place did I mention my appreciation of this guy. In no place did I say that his deeds were just and that he was (...) (21 years ago, 23-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) I don't get your logic. If killing him means nothing in the grand scheme of things then why was he killed? In fact, based on your above statement, I'd say that this was less of an act of self defense and more of an act of cold blooded murder. (...) (21 years ago, 23-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) An organisation which Israel helped establish as an Islamic alternative to secular groups such as the PLO. (...) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I expect the IDF has killed more babies than Hamas? (...) Q What happens to Israelis who refuse to (...) (21 years ago, 23-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) Mmmmm. The same is said of the Israelis. The same was probably said of the Russians, the Japanese, the Catholic Irish, before that the French and the Scots, and an illustrious list back to the Saracens and beyond. No doubt there are some who (...) (21 years ago, 23-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) Let's get our perspective correct then (at least mine; I'll let Scott speak for himself). I am presenting the view from the Israeli perspective; it has nothing to do with Bush. In fact, I would criticize the Bush administration for not (...) (21 years ago, 23-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) More BS moral equivalence. (...) Specious. To my knowledge, none of your examples had ever categorically sworn as the foundation of their existence the complete destruction of a particular enemy. Let's cut to the chase, and let me ask you (...) (21 years ago, 23-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) I agree with the above. However I think that it raises a number of questions. Remember that I don't believe in the initiation of the use of force... but I have questions nonetheless. 1) When exactly is a country in a "state of war" with an (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) I'll try to answer the best I can, please let me know if anything does not satisfy you entirely; these are purely my *current* answers. (...) I am of the opinion one can not fight a war against a non-territorial entity, but I will admit this (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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"Pedro Silva" <el_gordo@netc.pt> wrote in message news:Hv2BF5.vt0@lugnet.com... (...) entity? (...) or (...) but if (...) to act (...) organization that (...) are yes, (...) entity, (...) used (...) metaphor. (...) 19th (...) is no (...) be (...) (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) I don't think terrorism is hard to define-- it's just that people use the term incorrectly or indiscriminately and therefore its definition is muddied. Terrorism is the targeted killing of innocent civilians by a person or group in order to (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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Don't make the mistake of assessing this event in isolation. The precedent has already been set; Israel has already apprehended a number of individuals (from Hamas members to Nazi war criminals) and put them on trial. Sharon did this because he does (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) All? It's just a wild guess. Of course both sides of a war will present arguments saying they're right, so they won't be of much help. Wars usually begin once conflicting interests can no longer be settled thru diplomatic channels, which are (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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"Pedro Silva" <el_gordo@netc.pt> wrote in message news:Hv3IF7.BuF@lugnet.com... (...) old (...) terrorism: "act (...) Hmm, by that definition, almost all acts of war are acts of terrorism. It is not practical in a military action to eliminate all (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) The nuance is that terrorism is performed by violence exclusively, but you can break an enemy's morale using other tactics. Not to mention a great deal in fighting a war has to do with destroying the opponents' ability to inflict damage on (...) (21 years ago, 24-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) I wasn't actually saying that at all, although I'd happily agree that you could a sense of moral equivalence. But I wasn't commenting on your odd morality, or even the American revived doctrine of pre-emptive self-defense. I was simply (...) (21 years ago, 25-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) This is just American popular historical fantasy of the sort the Japanese would be proud of. There was nothing indiscriminate about the targetting of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the intent was not taking out factories and infrastructure. (URL) (...) (21 years ago, 25-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Parsons wrote: (snip) (...) So what? Doesn't mean anything. (...) Say again? We "fought" them on every front imaginable- Korea, Viet Nam, the Cold War. Nobody recognized any "common humanity" in the USSR, only the (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) What do you mean "if"? (...) So why did Israel help establish Hamas? What about the right-wing Israeli terrorist groups? (...) There will never be peace as long as the killing persists on both sides. Your one sided view of this situation is (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) I do not consider a society "peaceful" or "peace-loving" if they condone the sending of their citizens to commit cold-blooded murder. Honestly, I'd admire their conviction and resolve a lot more if the suicide bombers killed only themselves in (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) Let's leave the IDF out of this! (...) What do you think makes them want to kill? Perhaps stories like (URL) this>. (...) What is more important to people like Sharon: Land or Peace? (...) What about Sharon. Is he a "Ghandi"? (...) Why is (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) So Sharon does not bomb their homes? He does not fire rockets at them? Scott A (21 years ago, 29-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Sheikh Yassin
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(...) The right wing Israeli group Ateret Cohanim “is the spiritual focus for the return of Jews to their homes in the "Moslem" (once known as the Mixed) Quarter.” (i.e. this group, supported by Sharon, is engaged in ethnic cleansing). Where does it (...) (21 years ago, 31-Mar-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | subtleties of diplomatic language (was Re: Sheikh Yassin)
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(...) (URL) 50 retired US diplomats> think Bush and Sharon are part of the problem; On Bush: "Your unabashed support of Sharon's extra-judicial assassinations, Israel's Berlin-Wall-like barrier, its harsh military measures in occupied territories (...) (21 years ago, 4-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: subtleties of diplomatic language (was Re: Sheikh Yassin)
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(...) Well, let's be pragmatic about this. If Dubya complains about Sharon's choice to defy worldwide consensus and employ unilateral military intervention, then Dubya can hardly maintain his Straussian "invade them all and let Rumsfeld sort them (...) (21 years ago, 4-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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