 | | To change the tune...
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(URL) couldn't have said it better. There is that old adage--let history be the judge. I wonder, in 100 years what will history think of Dubya? Dave K (20 years ago, 5-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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I particularly liked "I am not comparing the U.S. to Nazi Germany." Chris (20 years ago, 5-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) People seem to have to state that these days if they start talking about the US administration leading the people down the primrose path, hyping up the 'terror alerts'. Funny how the comparison is, well, not an exact fit, as hardly any (...) (20 years ago, 5-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And then go on to compare the US to Nazi Germany! Huh? JOHN (20 years ago, 5-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Yes, precisely. Chris (20 years ago, 5-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Let's look at the exact wuote then, shall we?(seeing as how it;s right at the end of the article, it's pretty easy to find...) " I am not comparing the U.S. to Nazi Germany. But one does begin to understand in all this how the Germans, another (...) (20 years ago, 5-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Well, maybe you could come close. I've seen you use "arrant nonsense"(1) in a sentence before, haven't I? (...) Tool or fool, but not cool. 1 - one of my favorite phrasings (20 years ago, 5-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: To change the tune...
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote: "You're wrong--he has WoMD (...) Cites, please. Whom are you quoting? (...) Specific cites of quotations, please. (...) That's just you propping up a straw man. JOHN (20 years ago, 5-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Oh come on, John. You HAVE to admit the administration has been backpedaling from their previous claims, even if Dave hasn't provided specific cites from the various speeches. I mean, who has time? (20 years ago, 6-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) The reason I asked is because I know for a fact that nobody ever claimed such. It was blown intelligence and everybody bought it (why wouldn't they? SH, the complete idiot, wanted everyone to believe he had them. Bet he never thought we'd (...) (20 years ago, 6-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) The rest of your fine post is fatally weakened by the above sentence. Troll through some Bush speeches and you'll find the claims, in plain daylight. Heck, take a look at the Powell speech to the UN just prior, they're there. (to find that (...) (20 years ago, 6-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I think I already summed up this same position some time ago right here: either Dubya lied, or he was incompetent. Either way, he led the country into a contrived war, spending billions of dollars, the lives of our troops, ruined our country's (...) (20 years ago, 6-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I care! If he truly blew it, then he is merely unimaginably stupid. (Why was it obvious to lots of CIA analysts, reporters, and other nations around the world, and many of us that this whole thing was rigged, but not to our president?) And (...) (20 years ago, 6-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) "The Iraqi regime ... possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons." -- George W. Bush "We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, (...) (20 years ago, 6-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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By and large, I agree with DaveK's attack on our president. He lied to us and I believe, still, that he is a bad man. But that doesn't change the fact that Saddam Hussein is also a bad man. Really bad! I do believe that the world is a better place (...) (20 years ago, 6-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Perfectly agreed--SH's finagling and ousting inspectors and flaunting UN resolutions was a terrible thing. No one has ever stated that SH wasn't a tyrannical dictator with much blood on his hands. But at the time in question--from just before (...) (20 years ago, 6-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Um, why isn't this an impeachable offense? (I admit it, my wife dinged me for this... she pointed out that I was screaming for the head of Clinton because he was an admitted perjurer (over something relatively unimportant, but the principle of (...) (20 years ago, 6-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think you're just mellowing in your old age--we all get there :) We also pick and choose our battles, but knowing that our friends will be there when we feel like taking a break from the battles is a good thing. I'm there for ya, Larry. (...) (20 years ago, 6-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) He should be! That's what I was saying. If he just screwed up, he should only be impeached. If he did it on purpose, his fate should be well worse. Chris (20 years ago, 6-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) He shouldn't be in office in either case. And, no, we didn't elect him. If we get to stone every politician who lied, there would be no politicians - not that doesn't sound bad. :-) -->Bruce<-- (20 years ago, 6-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) c/ be no/ be almost no/ and we agree. I think there are a *few* honest politicians out there. Ron Paul for example... (URL) (a good read in and of itself) (20 years ago, 6-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Hitler’s debt to America (Re: To change the tune...)
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(...) Talking of which.... (URL) Hitler's debt to America:> "One such agitator was a disgruntled corporal in the German army. In 1924, he was serving time in prison for mob action. While there, he spent his time poring over eugenic textbooks, which (...) (20 years ago, 7-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote: (snipped quotations) What I thought: nowhere did he ever use the term "imminent". (...) The meaning of your non-sequitur eludes me. What Bush wanted was Saddam Hussein removed from power, period. (...) (...) (20 years ago, 8-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Bush's support for Israel is good for nobody. It is'nt even good for Israel. (...) None of that explains Bush’s support for brutal regimes (e.g. Uzbekistan & Israel) or nuclear proliferators (Pakistan). Scott A (20 years ago, 8-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Well, the ongoing Kashmir conflict (and at some points in history all out war) between India and Pakistan... -Orion (20 years ago, 8-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) How literally do you insist on "war" to be defined? Would you accept that the Vietnam conflict, for instance, was actually a war? Chris (20 years ago, 9-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) While we're at it, how literally do you want "democracy" defined? Would you accept that the US, for instance, is actually a republic, not a democracy? BTW I don't accept "The Straight Ddope" as a source, since it has been used against ME in (...) (20 years ago, 9-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) By merit of being a Democracy alone Israel deserves our support. While I agree that in an ideal world we wouldn't have to support Israel monetarily as we currently do, to actually withdraw support would be a very bad signal to send to Islamic (...) (20 years ago, 9-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) A civil war. JOHN (20 years ago, 9-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) You need to understand what "Democracy" means. (...) It is not only "Islamic extremists" who oppose what Israel is doing. (...) Yep, it's a (URL) f> (URL) a> (URL) c> (URL) t>. (...) You are in denial. Scott A (...) (20 years ago, 9-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) That's not quite the whole story. He wanted SH removed and replaced with a pro-US stooge. The people of Iraq are going against the plot... they are asking for democracy! (...) Because of the agenda set by Washinton & London. Even I thought he (...) (20 years ago, 10-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I'd say the 'capable of attacking within 45 minutes' was imminent enough. (...) Show me before the war where he said that? You know Dubya, et al. mentioned the imminent threat of Iraq many times over, but I don't recall anyone saying that the (...) (20 years ago, 10-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Believe what you want. Time will certainly tell. (...) Well, some did. How can you be certain that you would have been right? (...) Facts? What "facts"? The facts are that he had them in the past, he had the willingness to use them, and he was (...) (20 years ago, 10-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I don't have time to research it, but you are dead wrong on both counts. He called for Saddam to step down, and never used the term imminent threat. (...) Please, at this point nobody knows the "truth". For all we know, the WMDs could have (...) (20 years ago, 10-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) That's splitting hairs: "Grave and gathering" "Urgent". Bush is doing the Texas Two-Step. But on the other count, yes, Bush indicated that Saddam was to be removed from power - specifically because of the WoMD. Can't find any WoMD so now it's (...) (20 years ago, 10-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I disagree in this sense: I believe what Bush meant was that, given time, the inevitable proliferation of WMDs to terrorists by SH was bound to occur, just not "imminently". If SH already had the weapons, then an attack could have happened at (...) (20 years ago, 10-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) It probably would, but that's not what draws my attention in your post: Exactly why can't a nation with oil resources seek nuclear capabilities? (...) Then why did your country require inspections in the first place? That is, if they were so (...) (20 years ago, 10-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) As I said, splitting hairs. The indication was that Saddam had WoMD and was going to either use them himself or hand them out like candy to Islamic extremists (who would only to be happy to use them on Saddam, given half a chance). (...) He (...) (20 years ago, 10-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I doubt it. After we back-stabbed him like that? He came to us and asked permission to invade Kuwait. We told him officially, and on the record, that we had no opinion on his minor border dispute. As soon as he committed we mobilized and (...) (20 years ago, 11-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Smell the coffee John; time is telling as we speak! (...) I was wrong in a way; it looks like he did not have WMD. I feel he would have used them if he had them. (...) Show me the link with OBL. (...) He could not even police his own country! (...) (20 years ago, 11-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) You'll have to quote me some source for that sequence of events - it sounds like the Official Saddam Version. And yes, even if that's the real undisputed sequence (which I'll bluntly say that I doubt), he'd still do it in a heartbeat. (...) (...) (20 years ago, 11-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Well, okay. Bush believed SH possessed them and was fully willing and able to share them with his aquaintances at any time. Interesting question: Did SH know that he didn't have WMDs? Was he deceived by his own scientists? (...) Not so sure. A (...) (20 years ago, 11-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Renegade Republicans (was re: To change the tune...
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(...) G H W "I never met a spending bill I didn't like" Bush is the renegade Republican, my friend. USD 500B deficits as far as the eye can see, more government, more spending on social welfare programs, more intrusions into people's private lives, (...) (20 years ago, 11-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) (talking about Iraq here) It's not that they can't, it's why would they? It costs billions of dollars for such a venture, where the oppotunity cost may never be made up. Unless there is something else about the nuclear plant that one is (...) (20 years ago, 11-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) To be honest, so am I. The tax cut was good. The dissolution of the IRS would be terrific. But I think we are seeing the pitfalls of a guy who is known for compromising and getting along. But voting Democrat??? How in the world would you ever (...) (20 years ago, 11-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) That still only takes up back to the he's an incompetent or liar question, and saying the answer is incompetent still means he shouldn't be president. (...) What terrorists were going to destablize his neighbors? They would have gone for Iraq (...) (20 years ago, 11-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) You may think he's a liar, but I don't, so on that issue we may have to agree to disagree. Now as far as incompetency goes, I say this. Bush could only make a decision based on the "facts" given to him. But given SH's history, and the (...) (20 years ago, 11-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | courage in combat [Re: To change the tune...]
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(...) I'm not clear what Mr Kelly’s politics are, but he does have my respect. I'm no fan of the Vietnam War (nether was he), but he did serve his country with considerable distinction; both "in country" and in sharing his opinions & experiences (...) (20 years ago, 11-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) 4 Points: I'd say the Palestinians are on the receiving end of "terrorism” more than the USA is. I'd say that not all the attacks on Israel are "terrorism". I'd say there is not a lot of evidence in the public domain to show that the USA is a (...) (20 years ago, 11-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Because it is ultimately their prerrogative. You are aware of that basic notion of sovereignty, aren't you? (...) That is their problem. As a non iraqi, you have no vote on the matter - do you? (...) That is your problem, granted. But it's up (...) (20 years ago, 11-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) How long do you think it would have taken Hussein & Sons to kill that many if they'd been left in power? Anyways, the US was directly responsible for putting Saddam in charge of Iraq those many years ago. Quite frankly, it worries me that the (...) (20 years ago, 12-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I don't know. What was his "kill rate" before the war? How many women & children did he kill in the run up to that war? (...) Rumsfeld: "We know where they are." As an aside, the whole country does not have to be checked; pre-war, SH did not (...) (20 years ago, 12-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: To change the tune...
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(...) I'm not sure which parts of LUGNET you've been reading, but a number of us are passingly familiar with the correct usage of moot. (URL) Here> is part of one of many discussions about that very word (at least, a discussion of one of its (...) (20 years ago, 18-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Agreed. (URL) HERE> is another, acknowledging your very concern;-) JOHN (20 years ago, 18-Feb-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | US State Department: Global terror attacks are on the rise
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(...) It appear's Bush's antics as part of the "War on Terror" have conincided with a (URL) in international terrorism! Scott A (20 years ago, 11-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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