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(...) From this very thread: (URL) crime is lower now (in Scotland) than 10 years ago (they were "banned" in 97)." Scott A (21 years ago, 10-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Also from that same post. "I think overall gun crime is rising (perhaps we should ban all guns?), but I doubt you’ll find data that suggest increased gun ownership in the UK would improve things?" Well guess what, the gun crime rate in the (...) (21 years ago, 10-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Let's assume that's true. Look back to 10-15 years ago; there were large fluctuations in gun crime in the USA caused by the "shall-issue" laws. So your comparison with Bonnie Scotland is bogus. (...) Are you blind? Read what I said again: (...) (21 years ago, 11-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Citation, please. Dave! (21 years ago, 11-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Online, I have no idea. Now in the papers, on the radio, on TV there have been numerous citations of studies which indicate that the crime rate as gone down but the brutality of crimes that do happen has increased, giving the overall (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Did you read what you wrote? (...) So making Hadguns illegal has only caused criminals to use other guns. (What a surprise.) Have you ever heard of the Black Market. Criminals will always have guns. (...) can draw is that both sides are using (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I would add to that the media slogan "if it bleeds, it leads" in terms of priority of news coverage. At least one study has demonstrated that murder rates have gone down by something like 18% over some recent period of time, but news coverage (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) That's not quite right. Logically, data cannot be used selectively to demonstrate the efficacy of gun control laws. However, it does not logically follow, therefore, that no correlation exists between gun control and gun crime. I happen to (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) As half-a-million legally owned guns are stolen in the USA each year, I'd suggest gun crime is somewhat dependent on lack of gun control legislation. ;) Ownership is one thing; ownership without responsibility is a different kettle of fish. (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Living in fear helps us all become good consumers. Have you never heard of Edward Bernase or his uncle? Scott A “I'm proud to be maladjusted and to which I call upon you to continue to be maladjusted." MLK (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I agree with that. Now I am not an NRA member but one of their biggest "causes" (for lack of a better word) is insisting on responsible owenership. They also support mandatory minimum prison sentances for persons who commit crimes with guns. (...) (21 years ago, 13-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I could be difficult and argue the definition of is*, but I think your logically right. ;-) There are quite a few things that might be responsible for the decrease in crime, like the increased rate of incarceration of criminals for example. I (...) (21 years ago, 13-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Mike, for maximum effect: "I could be difficult and argue what the definition of is is". All I do is give, JOHN (21 years ago, 13-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) "Insisting" is not a word that I think the NRA would use or want you to use. "Insisting" would means that they back mandatory gun safety courses as a precursor to gun ownership, something I don't believe they back (they want no impediments to (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) And scissors, pencils, and LEGO all have a primary function which has nothing to do with the ending or maiming of a life. What is a gun's *primary* function? As soon as you start realizing you can't sit there and say, "Well, such-n-such can (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) But a gun's purpose isn't interently to shoot a person; that's an inferential purpose. By extension, the purpose of a pair of scissors is to cut things, therefore I can cut someone's throat with them, so scissors should be banned. A baseball (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) (snipping rest of silly examples) The primary purpose of a gun is to shoot something - the primary purpose of a handgun is to shoot someone. The reason that they were developed in the first place were to shoot someone. The primary purpose of a (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Hence I didn't say that the inherent purpose of a gun is to shoot someone. However, the 'usual' purpose of a gun *user* is to shoot at someone, either in an act of "defense" or in an act of crime. Maybe to scare, maybe to intimidate, and maybe (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Doh! Well, I guess that's right, but see below: (...) So you're saying that my specious argument (which took up lot of space) and Dave's specious argument (which also took up a lot of space) were of the same spacious specious species? After (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote: <snip> (...) But are you a master debater? Dave K -I says pardon??? (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Okay, but now we're back to "guns don't kill people; people kill people." If you wish to condemn guns based on their "intent," then you can't simply abandon that argument in favor of the user's "'usual' purpose." You seem to be claiming (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Specifically what I said was: "Anyone that tries to take away my constitutionally protected fundamental rights better find a cure for brain lead first." (...) One that recognizes Freedom was purchased in blood. I highly doubt that I will ever (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I was cutting the other side some slack with my 'diplomatic wording'. It's called being nice to the other side. It is my personal contention that a gun's main purpose is to kill/main someone else in front of the gun, and I have as yet to be (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Psst! Hey Mike, just for an FYI--we're in the 21st century. What worked in 1776 may not work so much right now. But that's just my personal opinion. And I'll point out once again that the 'establishment' has nukes and what else comes with the (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Your right but the guns in the other 200ish million homes does. (...) Even a Muskett in everyone's hands would still work. The modern Military can not defend itself from millions of people attacking them in their own bases. (I honestly don't (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I could not resist to comment: 1-americans must *really* feel lonely, at 1.4 per home! (*) 2-Those 200million guns (or whatever the figure) can never work as one. For starters, no wanna-be-oppressor would be dumb enough not to have a power (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mike Petrucelli wrote: <snip> (...) And I don't understand why you have a difficult time grasping the truth. 1776 history shows the differential in technology between the ruling powers and the common man to be rather (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Maybe in Canada but not here in the U.S. (...) The only thing that garuntees the right to vote is the armed citizenry. (...) And won't be so long as we retain the ability to combat such opressors. (...) So long as I am armed my vote can never (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Constant avoidance of the truth does not make the truth go away. A citizen cannot purchase an F22. A citizen cannot have at his or her disposal an ICBM. A citizen can only have, at best, a gun. This makes the differntial rather large. It's the (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) However, fighter jets and ICBMs don't "hold" territory. Just look at what's going on in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Palestine for examples of what an "armed" citizenry might be able to do to resist oppressors. (...) Right now the situation is not (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) A cynic might even claim that the only reason the civil rights movement progressed was that a white minister was killed... See: (URL) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And I mentioned that in other countries, an armed citizenry is needed in order for them to make it to the end of a day. Are you saying that America is on par with Afghanistan? That you face the same problems? (...) Cites please. Show me at (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Explain the Civil War (from {either} vantage point). (...) That is an extremely false analogy - is Frank saying that we need to have flintlock rifles and muskets? No, so where does this stuff about candles and dirt come in? Technological (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) My vote has no power at all. The power of the people is derived from their status of being collectively stronger than the military forces of the government. I seriously doubt that will ever need to be used, but so long as the government has (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, call my old man paranoid, but he is convinced the "smaller" nukes just okayed by the Senate are for use "in country." I generally support the right of citizens to be armed at the same level as the professional military, but I think I'll (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I think if it actually came to nukes everyone lost already. Of course I happen to think oblivion is better than slavery, but I would still consider that losing. (I may be a little crazy, but I am not stupid.) -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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